Make sure she understands that under the old server ruleset, you could easily get flagged for PVP even on a PVE server. These days some people call it “forceflagging”, a term that makes me roll my eyes, but it was simply a fact of life in those days. There were quests that would flag you with no warning, as an example.
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There might be pressure to nerf Naxx way down the line - after the very good guilds have it on farm but others are being destroyed by it.
People who can’t do it might complain.
That is the slope that forever changed retail instances and raids. Classic content should never be nerfed.
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The people yelling that Naxx will be on farm won’t complete it. Can’t wait to see these people losing there minds over prophet in AQ40 with have trouble interrupting, or with chromag and sand.
I am expecting people to be crying on the forums ask npc cast bars and higher sand drops.
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Yeah, very, very few–if any–people had Naxx on Farm in Vanilla. That’s just preposterous. Ha ha. I don’t think it will be an issue. I can’t foresee it being a problem. It was SO hard, and SO fun, and SO engaging. It, like BWL before it, was truly a process to learn together and work through. Honestly, even those of us who did it way back when will have to re-learn it all.
I’m looking forward to another shot at mastering Naxx, but even if every piece of raid content was truly “on farm” for my guild, there is just so much more to the game than that.
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The entire premise of this thread is inaccurate.
First, Vanilla was significant MORE raid centric than any single period of time post vanilla. I genuinely don’t understand where casual players are getting so deluded on this… There legitimately weren’t even alternative options at 60. Raid or gtfo.
Secondly, as already pointed out, private realms and the entire 14 year history of the game prove that content drives the game. Private realms are typically dying by the time Naxx comes out, in favor of the new “fresh” realm, specifically because people get bored and quit when they don’t have anything new to do or clear.
Third, players are SIGNIFICANTLY better at the game than they where back in the day. Watch any video from back then and see countless relatively cringe level displays of ability clicking, backpeddling, or simply not being well adapted to mechanics. I knew a “click to move, keyboard turning” player who cleared into AQ40 in OG vanilla, where I wouldn’t invite some one like that to a 5 man now. The game has absolutely evolved. BfA was a let down, but there are numerous fights on heroic or even normal mode Uldir that put just about anything found in vanilla era content to shame mechanically. Theory craft regarding consumables, debuffs, raid setup, talent builds, and overall optimization are way more complete for vanilla content now. I won’t go as far to say that content is going to get steamrolled, but dedicated guilds that are competent by today’s standards probably aren’t going to mechanically struggle with the vast majority of vanilla content and the real struggle will end up being player burnout and maintaining a 40 man roster (which was honestly even back then the larger issue overall)
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The remainder of what you wrote is debatable, perhaps, but this seems quite out there. All the numbers I’ve seen is that <5% bothered to step foot into Naxx and about 0.1% cleared Naxx before BC launched. That tells me that the majority of players were not raiding PvE at all.
Do you have anything that backs your claim up? Am I just spouting numbers fed to me by Blizzard when they were trying to justify LFR, which were lies or greatly-twisted truths?
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Well there was PVP and honor ranks (definitely a MAJOR activity to get rank 13-14), crafting, farming/ah.
You are correct that Blizzard added activities for casual players in later expansions, but those activities mostly were not that interesting IMO.
You are also correct that raiding drove many things in the economy, enabling other activities such as crafting consumables.
Raid participation numbers are entirely irrelevant to how the game was actually designed. Get it through your damn heads already, you people keep parroting this nonsense.
Go ahead and list the content for people at 60 that isn’t raiding or directly contributing to raiding. Now compare that list to any other expansion. Then compare the kind of gear available from those options.
If you still can’t grasp that vanilla was designed entirely around the expectation of people raiding after making that list, then you are simply too incompetent to bother dealing with. Go ahead, make the list.
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Pvp ranking was even less casual than raiding from a time investment standpoint, and was nearly universally done in raid gear with a premade in order to compete with other premades…
It wasn’t until TBC that pvp really began to separate from pve gear and time investment.
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What you need to understand is that that <5% of raiders…well, they acted like the rest of us weren’t there, or must be awed by their activities and successes, since we were somehow hanging around in the game not engaging with the only part of it that they recognized as mattering.
We, in turn, pretty much regarded them as lunatics, who ignored most of the game we were all paying for and expected deference from us for no reason that made any sense.
I absolutely believe that Åpocalypse was an original-Classic raider, maybe even a Naxxramas raider. He’s got the attitude down pat. And on this forum, as on the forums for the game then, people who know better generally just ignore the people with that attitude.
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This is laughable… Yes CLEARLY the people who where actually engaging in the vast majority of the post 60 content (which by the way, was also the ONLY content even considered from a class balance perspective) while still also engaging in every bit of the content you casuals claim to comprise the majority… Those guys are the ones who are ignoring “most” of the game.
Go ahead and make that same content list I told the guy above to make… And actually provide something to support your asinine claim.
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You are right rank 13-14 wan’t casual in terms of time investment.
Yet one could casually progress multiple PvP ranks by simply playing BGs. (Some even afk’d, now that is casual.)
Not everyone liked the PvP system in TBC, some certainly did, but you are right they were changing things.
Okay, chief. You can move along now. It looks like you have nothing to gain by wasting time with the likes of me.
LOL I can see that. They’re the ones who are convinced that people looked at their gear while traipsing around Stormwind, knew exactly which boss it fell from and how hard it was to get it, and longed for that kind of gear because of the dedication and bravery it took to get it.
While in reality we might have said something like, “cool sword!” and they were all like “did someone say [Thu…]?” and saw your polite greeting as worship…
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Many casuals did not play post 60 or ‘end-game’ - much of which was raiding related.
The original game actually considered 1-60 leveling, professions, instances, wpvp, rp, etc as part of the game itself. Not a ride just to end-game. It was a structure for players to create their own experiences.
Over many xpacs the game got wonky in areas like level scaling and class mechanics. Things became more scripted. Just less interesting for what some casual players want in a game.
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So is that an admission that you are incapable of creating the list of all this casual content that had nothing to do with raiding… or an admission that you tried to create the list and realized that it proved my point?
I can’t speak for all raiders, but you and Narya seem to have this weird egocentric veiwpoint that assumes raiding players at all cared about casual players, or what they thought, let alone for any discernible reason needed to seek validation from them.
The majority of my interactions with casual players fell on one of 2 categories:
-
They farmed up consumables (or mats for consumables) that I used in raiding.
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PvP… Where their major impact was getting absolutely demolished repeatedly by anyone with decent gear, and/or costing one of the two teams the game by too many of them randomly being on a specific team.
I can concede the idea that leveling content was significantly more weighted during the vanilla timeline, given that a single level between 50-60 might take more time than an entire expansion’s worth of leveling does today.
That being said, the game was designed to include raiding from the very beginning. It was always a part of the concept that it would represent the majority of the post 60 content via simple time gating. It was even the area that the game was primarily balanced around.
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Some of us raided Naxx and managed to keep our heads ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
My main guild never got part BWL - due to numbers - but I raided with an Aussie guild at nights/mornings and do AQ40-Naxx and they were a really down to earth group.
I remember essentially shaking with nerves the first time I stepped into Naxx.
You seriously need to chill.
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It’s an admission that I have nothing to offer you, that I’m a waste of your time, and that any list I would attempt to come up with for you would be a fool’s errand because you have made clear you do not value any opinion like mine. You can, if it makes you feel good, just chalk this up to a forum “win” and say I conceded the point.
Whatever floats your boat.
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I value logic and facts… two things you have yet to provide.
I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to expect people to be actually be able to justify their opinions with facts or supporting evidence… Particularly when they are then trying to use their incorrect viewpoint to impact game design and/or steer it in a direction that isn’t representative of what the game is or was.
Yup. You’re right. What I’ve provided to you look, to you, like neither logic nor facts. I agree.
I’ll give you this. I apparently was mistaken in my impression of how private servers operated in the OP. I’ve been corrected twice now by you and by Sqe before you. This was informing, and perhaps I did not make my discovery clear and my thanks known. (Thank you, Sqe, and thank you, Apocalypse, for your insight into how private servers work.)
I have an opinion of what I want Classic to be, and if that’s based on an erroneous impression of how Vanilla was (as erroneous as my impression of private servers are, perhaps), it still doesn’t affect my desire for Classic to be the way I’m saying I want it to be. Your correcting of my impressions of the way these things are and the way these things were in 2004-2006 have not “corrected” my desires to have an open-ended Classic server with no end date and no transfers out when the BC servers hit, and so on.
It may well be that my desires will lead (if I’m effective at convincing Blizzard to design things my way, which I don’t think is really a high probability) to a crappy languishing dead Classic in 2-3 years after launch, kinda like Diablo III is for me now. I’m open to that possibility.
As it is, I am just expressing my opinion here. It may be wrong. So be it. It is what it is. I am not here, really, to debate you on how things were back in the day – I already said I’m a Wrath baby in the OP so everyone knows I lack any memory of how those things were. I only have my impressions that I get from other people who say things here and there. And they are nicer to me than you are, so I listen to them more than I listen to you, because I’m human.
Do with that what you wish.
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