Dwelknarr, people have explained to you in detail why they think M+ causes toxicity, you just won’t accept their points of view, because you are extremely invested in this debate and you like M+. No one is going to convince you here, its almost like arguing with someone over politics.
I can at least admit that the intention to get more life out of dungeons was a good cause, but the way they went about it sucks for the game.
You think M+ is dungeon crawling?
Lies, its my opinion dude. Can you understand that this is debate? You don’t have any data that proves me wrong either, all you have is conjecture ,anecdotal experiences and data from a 3rd party website that doesn’t show the amount of players that don’t run M+. So please, spare me this woah is me nonsense.
Um, okay buddy. Anyone that doesn’t agree with you is making fabrications.
Um, all the big MMOs copy good systems off each other. Where do you think idea for Delves came from? It was from Lotro, they have had them in the game for years.
If M+ was actually good, the other big MMOs would have it their games, but they don’t, because MMO players don’t want to speed run dungeons.
Its not optional, it is a huge part of end game for WoW now.
I looked at your Raiderio, a lot of your runs are with the same few players. It kind of makes sense now.
Sigh dude, just sigh. Sometimes I feel like I’m talking to an AI here.
I really dislike this season’s M+ pool and I usually love M+. Who thought bringing back Siege of Boralus was a good idea? Also who thought the last boss having a knockback was anything close to sane? At least they hotfixed it early but the fact that it was even a thing is mind boggling.
Are runed crests required to participate in endgame? You’re adding requirements here that do not exist. A player who does not mythic raid and is shooting for AOTC by the end of the season does not need to run M+ for runed crests. They can spend the crests they get in delves (if they are running those) and heroic raid to upgrade, and if it takes them several weeks longer, that won’t stop them from getting AOTC.
Do not twist what I am saying here. I am not saying the game should force players into M+ if they want to crap crests or need to catch up. I’m all for other content to allow players to reach weekly cap and catch up. It’s just a frankly bad faith argument to try to argue that you can’t endgame if you don’t get crests from M+. Perhaps the goals you set for yourself require it, but projecting across the entire player base is just disingenuous.
Especially when we consider what options existed for endgame prior to when M+ was added.
You don’t even try. You just repeat that it does promote toxicity.
That’s not what I said at all. Why can’t you dungeon crawl with the other difficulties of the dungeon?
It has nothing to do with someone disagreeing with me. It’s things like this:
This has not once been my position at all, yet you routinely make statements like this as a way to try to discredit my argument. I have no problem with you telling me what about my points you don’t agree with. But when you make claims like this, suggesting my motivation which you can’t possibly know, that it becomes a problem. Or to put another way, is a fabrication.
Some amount of MMO players want to speed run dungeons, and they can do so in WoW.
So there are no players participating in endgame that don’t M+?
Feel free to go back to before DF S4 and check out how many people I’ve played with. Make sure to check out my primary alts Leylla and Kiesa, as well. I think you’ll see I’ve PUGed a lot, across a lot of levels.
Not that you need to know this, but my first child was born right at the start of DF S4. This has dramatically reduced the amount of WoW time I’m able to log, and thus the amount of keys I can run. The most time I get for keys is morning on the weekends, during which I help a streamer who is on at those times. I’ve played with that guy going back to the beginning of Shadowlands. You will find I’ve run many keys with him and some of the other folks that help him with keys on stream, especially over the past couple seasons. But if you care to actually dig into my history, I think you’ll find that I have quite the history with PUGs.
Of course, I’m really not sure what any of this has to do with my statement regarding M+ being optional.
This is nothing but ad hominem. It has nothing to do with your disagreeing with me, but that you make no attempt to address the point itself or how it relates to what you said.
My sub is up in a few days, so I don’t care I get banned. I just wanted to say, that you are hands down probably one of the most annoying posters to interact with on these forums, and these are the same forums that have Akston and Snozy posting. You got both of them beat.
You are way too invested in this game, and I don’t know how the heck you have the time to post on these forums all day every day. I was recovering from surgery, so my post count was up the last 3 weeks, but I might check in on things a few times a week.
Yeah, I’m deflecting here, but the truth is, you are way too emotional about this. This is a dang video game, it is meant to be entertainment, and M+ might entertain some, but most people don’t play MMOs to pad some dumb internet score, or to have to put in a job resume just to run a stupid dungeon.
M+ is exhausting, it flies in the face of what this game set out to be, a more casual version of EQ.
Enjoy wasting your life on a topic that is kind of pointless. Every single M+ thread has a wall of text from you spewing thinley veiled attacks at anyone that doesn’t agree with your views.
Good day, this is the last time I ever respond to again.
I play M+ because it’s fun. And it’s something that would be removed if you had your way. That’s why I post as often as I do.
This is an example of the lie I referenced you frequently telling. That’s probably why you didn’t include a quote of me attacking someone who doesn’t agree with my views.
Somehow I doubt this. But if true, have a good day.
The point is that you’re strongly incentivized to go to M+ and get them. It’s not that they’re required to participate, but that the quantities of basically all end game power you can get is skewed in favor of M+.
A full raid clear drops as many items per person as 4 keys, then hard locks you from continuing to progress further until reset.
Raid drops exactly the crest cap from a full clear on 1 difficulty, so your maximum crests per week is 120, factoring in the 30 from the difficulty below, which is still very bad catchup.
For Delves, If I’m doing my math right, you can only get 56 Runed crests per week, which is not a lot.
And then M+ showed up and took over the gearing system through sheer quantity of items. The existing options prior to M+ were all good and healthy, but M+ just gives you too much stuff.
Your whole post is overly emotional lol. “Ban me, Blizz! I don’t care! My subs almost up!!”
I’ll miss you. I’m rarely on the forums these days but it’s great that I can hop on and stumble across your anti-M+ tirades within a handful of minutes.
100%. And like I said, I think this should be adjusted. Players should be able to cap crests from any endgame pillar. I am not suggesting this is how it should be.
But again, there are many valid endgame goals people can have that do not require those crests. And there are many players who have such goals. That’s the extent of the point I was making.
Sure, but again, that doesn’t change how anyone has to interact with the endgame if they don’t want it to. Someone who was happy to just heroic raid before M+ could continue to do so, with the same number of drops as they got before. The fact that other players can gear faster doesn’t impact those players unless they are in a guild that imposes requirements they M+.
I did include caveats to try and avoid people replying with gotchas and spelling mistake criticism and steering discussion off course. It turns out they are trying to gotcha my attempt at avoiding gotchas… It’s all quite meta.
Like I said the phone comment was to excuse punctuation issues or spelling mistakes, and just to be clear if I’m sitting at my computer I’m playing the games I love not browsing the forums. Forum time is on my phone while in bed or on lunch at work.
My friends aren’t playing the game let alone going to that very games forums to communicate their perspective.
This has been quite the topic discussed by many content creators I watch and on Reddit the forums and I wanted to contribute my perspective for what it’s worth.
I still love TWW and am actively playing and there is plenty of challenge left to enjoy.
Warbands were created for both peoples. I love warbands because I love alts. I run 8-10 keys on three alts a week. This keeps me playing because there simply isn’t enough to do for one toon the whole season.
Old content again adjusted for both peoples. I love transmogs. And being a semi hard core player there is no point to running old raids. So the transmogs are the bait i needed to keep going back. And far as story…… farming bosses hardly tells a story.
You can love it that’s the point. I want you to feel the game is giving you enough to do.
You are the one that doesn’t want me to partake in the game cause I’m apparently to hardcore in your opinion.
“I can’t wait to get home and watch ( insert any streamer here ) run solo delves” said no one ever.
I think you, and everyone else should participate in all of the content, minus the one branch I would love to see turned back into a modifier. M+ is just riddles with issues, and the smart play would be to just remove it as a pillar and return it to what it was in Pandaria. We can all have a blast in Heroics and stop chasing gear.
As for your last comment, I will not talk politics here because I am here to discuss the topic, and not attack the players. Who I vote for is no one’s concern but my own. And why would I leave because of him or anyone else? As an American, I am not so defined by my party that I forget how to be a reasonable and respectful human. You may dislike my opinion, but that is pretty much what this country was founded on.
So, would you like to keep talking about the topic? Or are you more interested in insulting me and my place in this nation?
I’m not here to insult others, unless they just flat come for me, then I am happy to remove my gloves and go to town on them. For the most part, I just want honest and intellectual conversation in this public space. When someone has to resort to personal attacks, it is usually because their “facts” are weak and they are losing the discussion.
I can do both. Because your ability to follow simple logic across all realms of play style is simply put lacking. So much that you just stated you wanted mythic plus completely removed. How narcissistic of you, which sadly is also the political view of most extreme democrats who only feel what they want matters.
I get it you hate mythic plus.
But this little niche isn’t just about being the best.
For me personally ( and I would imagine there are a lot of people who play wow who fit into this same situation ) I love mythic plus. And really in my opinion it’s the only part of the game that matters. The reason I love it is because I can log on spend 40 mins in the game, then log off, spend time with my family, or do the charity work I am passionate about. While also advancing my character to maximum potential. Gone are the days of spending 5 nights a week 6 hours a night raiding just to progress my character. And if it were still that way I likely would not keep playing, because life is more important.
This is also for me why League of legends is such a good game. I can log on when I have an hour of free time and play a match then log off.
Let’s face facts. M+ is a toxic hole of misery. Has been for years. Blizz has the numbers. We don’t. The numbers don’t lie; But players do. The numbers say people are bailing on the game due to said toxic hole. So now they made delves. The community did it to themselves. I raised this issue back in BfA. It took em a few years to finally realise what I was saying was correct.
This line of thinking doesn’t track on these forums.
There is an extremely vocal minority of M+ defenders out there, just bashing anyone that brings up the systemic issues that M+ has created in the game.
Delves have proved that once offered an alternative path, players would opt to get out of the M+ ecosystem. I don’t blame them either, M+ is an extremely high stress environment that is extremely punishing if you make mistakes. All the other content in the game allows you to keep trying, not the case with M+. This is why it is such horrible system for WoW.
Blizzard took a weird direction with the game in Legion, the current leadership has been too focused on trying to pander to competitive players. It has been hurting the game a lot.
I’m rarely on the forums these days but it’s great that I can hop on and stumble across your anti-M+ tirades within a handful of minutes.