If you’re not clearing the final boss, you’re getting fewer items from a heroic raid than you get from 4 keys, at which point it hard locks you from progressing any further.
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you can only buy 3 a week per warband.
But i have sooooo much currency lol
Titans forbid you have to learn mechanics…
At a maximum of three per week if you unlocked the ability to buy them in the first place.
M+ killed raiding, but when something comes along that devalues M+, now you guys are upset?
M+ is the worst thing to happen to WoW, it devoured the game.
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Best i can do is 54 gold.
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This is true, but way back when Reputation grinds gave endgame gear. M+ devalued them. It’s the normal progression for older systems to get devalued.
Completely agree. Leeroy Jenkins would never happen these days. The guys doing the math would be in the M+ 12, and Leeroy would be left out with his 800 io. I think M+ is fine as a challenge mode but it’s shouldn’t even give gear. Almost how it is now. Then you can bring the World back to World of Warcraft.
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Pretty much this. S3 of DF was actually fun
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i think the m+ key squish is an awful change.
we didn’t notice it as much in DF because people already/mostly knew the content and gearing was well underway.
delves are both fun solo content and a great way to get geared beyond heroic dungeons to get ready for m+.
HOWEVER…
although you can get overgeared for m0/+2, delves simply do not prepare you for the mechanics of m+.
delves is a good gearing onramp into m+, but I think many of us need an onramp into the content from a mechanics perspective. having only m0 in which to do that is lackluster at best.
in previous versions of m0-9, you got gear upgrades, your m+ score increased as you moved up in the keys, you felt a sense of accomplishment, you got vault pieces, some gear and resource drops along the way. it was progressive.
by the time you hit the +10/11 level and were making the push to 2k rating (roughly 14s/15s), you had a pretty good idea of how the content worked.
today, you hit m0 and it hits like a truck right out of the gate. get it wrong? deleted/wiped.
sure, there is no timer in m0 and no mob count, but that only goes to prove my point. even the relatively hard hitting m0 doesn’t really help you learn the dungeon the way you are going to run it at +2 when stuff hits even harder.
of course, the top end players all hit 2-2.5k rating within 4 minutes of the content being released. they were probably in guilds or coordinated groups. they probably played a lot of beta/ptr and practiced before season launch.
that is not the experience of the average players in pugs.
i LIKE m+ because it is a continous challenge. however, when you consider the lack of a learning onramp, the nerfing of tanks and healers, the change to mob control, and the general difficulty of the dungeons, this season doesn’t feel like it offers the right balance of fun and challenge that many of us enjoy.
too much challenge, with not enough fun or reward, simply becomes frustration.
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This seems well written 
Retail WoW has basically become an M+ waiting room.
I think Blizzard has finally realized this, hence the changes to M+.
The rest of the game just feels like a mobile game.
I think a lot of M+ players like you don’t realize that many players don’t want to on-ramped into M+.
I’m just amazed how this single system just occupies players minds in this game, or at least the people that post about it on the forums.
M+ is fun for like 2 weeks, then it just gets stale after that.
If WoW is gonna survive, they need to move in another direction with the game.
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Oh wow. Didn’t know they did that. Just make playing the game as punishing and unenjoyable as possible I guess. I already thought the healer drinking changes were bad enough.
The life cycle of every expansion.
How did M+ kill raiding? Yes, the reward structure means mythic raid teams are running M+ to the point of burnout in some cases, but what percentage of raiders does that even include? Every other difficulty of raiding can completely ignore M+ exists, and no other dungeon difficulty was removed to make way for M+.
The only way M+ might be seen as having killed raiding for the average raider is providing an option that requires less coordination and scheduling to experience endgame. If an activity requires lack of options for participation, is that somehow something we should be encouraging?
On what planet is this your takeaway? Nowhere does talking about the onramp for players who want to M+ indicate that all players do or should want to get into M+.
Which is why them adding delves is a good thing. It’s still very unclear why the only solution(s) you will accept is one that removes M+ rather than simply providing alternatives for players without kicking M+ players to the curb.
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and they dont have to be. they can and did jump in the previous versions of +10s day one. they were hitting KSM and KSH very quickly. good for them. they have no need of m0-9.
but those are fewer than 10% of the player base.
the rest of us - 80-90% of the player base, more than likely need to at least hopscotch their way up the ladder.
how do these hero talents work?
what are tank and healer changes like in action?
what are the new or different mechanics (e.g. aoe silence insta-recast)?
and then learn the new content.
of course it eventually gets stale to some extent.
I don’t think the answer to “staleness” is to have people so frustrated that they just ditch the content altogether.
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All I read was special snowflakes done feel special because how dare solo casual players do content that lets them progress at a slower pace.
Get over it bud. There is nothing wrong delves, their loot, or people enjoying them. M+ sucks, it always has. The arbitrary difficulty proposed by a timer is has breed the toxic cesspool that is M+. Have fun watching M+ die
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Read it 3 times, stayed awake, but yawned when I read the re-hash. Now, imagine if you will a new feature being released with a new expansion and Blizz wanting to steer people into it to “try” it, and then use those metrics to see what level of success it brought. Delve gear was not a “Oh, whoops, we forgot to go back and make it weaker than M+”. People are always complaining about all the time they lose playing this game, so imagine a gearing track that takes 10 minutes per run, not 20-30, can be done solo instead of 5 person, there is unlimited time with no bricked keys, and it scales right on up to T11 where the gear is on par with M+ and raiding…
Now imagine the bulk of the player base enjoying it cause they could get geared at their own pace without wasting time or enduing toxicity. Now imagine hardcore challenge mode gamers who think everything should be earned, as though this video game is a full time job, getting bent out of shape because casuals finally got a gearing pillar that allows them to run LFR/Norm/Heroic raids for the experience and the achievements.
The sooner folks stop treating delves like an after thought and start treating it like the M+ potential replacement, the quieter these forums will be.
Sent from my IBM Simon Personal Communicator
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The thing i think your missing is that less than 20% of the total playerbase has ever done more than 1 M+ key in a season (this is a fact that was determined in the DF S3 article relased on wowhead using warcraft logs data of raidfinder logs combined/compared with raiderio data). Majority of the playerbase would actually not mind if M+ was removed entirely. So basing anything with the veiwpoint that M+ is a majority concern at all is flawed logic. 80% of the playerbase does not engage with M+ at all.
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I disagree.
I believe this was a bone thrown to the casual / solo players.
The oversight way how much the people who enjoy group content mainly mythic plus keys would complain about it.