Mythic + feels devalued

Community General Discussion
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Don’t jump to conclusions, but this is just some thoughts on the general feeling of discontent I’m picking up and maybe why there is so much discussion over m+. I may write in absolutes, obviously there are exceptions…

Notes:
Gear matters in appearance, perception, progression, achievement and socially in an MMO.

This is an MMO, score matters it’s tied to rewards and achievements, titles etc. and it specifically matters compared to your fellow players hence percentile based rewards as an example.

Ilvl is right there listed next to score in group finder and is inextricably linked to your score and relative potential and performance as well peoples perception of you.

Delves rewarding hero track loot is out of alignment in comparison to the rest of the content in the game. Time is less, effort is less, skill is less, logistics is less.

Fine in a vacuum but it creates a psychological benchmark, like it or not.

This devalues “average” range m+ gear prolifically in terms of effort and skill vs. reward.

Next we have heroic raiding, where the primary barrier to entry is a fixed schedule.

Except for the final boss, a clear of heroic raid is sub 1 hour making it slightly less efficient than delves and more efficient than once again, 7-9 m+ keys.

This again devalues heroic track loot from m+.

Next we have mythic raid, where the non flex raid size and once again fixed schedule is the primary barrier to entry. ( I really can’t overstate how bad the fixed raid size is for guild development and progression)

I hang out with my previous guild mates (CE) and discussed this with them before I posted and they 100% agree that the first four bosses and especially raid trash farming is less effort, time, skill and risk than 10 keys.

This creates a scenario where if you want access to mythic track loot (which is relevant in all pve content) it’s walled off behind your commitment to a fixed schedule and 20 man roster and not your skill level. Before people jump in and say you can pug these bosses and trash, it’s absolutely possible but they fill up pretty quickly with mythic raider alts.

You could be pushing dungeons, and the gear you need/want to time that next key level, someone who is doing 1-4x mythic raid bosses could be acquiring mythic track loot at a 2x the pace to you. This makes a difference when the season has an end date.

So while delves are easier in every way and therefore everyone has access to them it’s muddied the waters, this combined with the change to mythic plus score has resulted in ques of hundreds of DPS all within a hundred score and 4 ilvl of each other.

In addition the mythic+ squish has made gear matter more due to the scaling.

The rebuttal to this is, “get good you don’t need gear… I did it at 605 nub”, “blizz is saying improve, most challenging content = most challenging rewards.”

Except this is literally not the case for equivalent rewards. In every instance of pve content those that are better beat it now and those that can’t currently, gear up to overcome the challenge. This is the literal foundational gameplay loop.

Delves are in fact less challenge/time and more rewards.
Heroic raid is less challenge/time and more rewards.
The first four bosses of mythic raid or trash is less challenge and more reward both gear and crests.

In fact if we look at mythic raid again, despite it being killed at 622-624 ilvl it’s challenge has been greatly reduced to allow more people to access it’s rewards. I don’t want to hear “that’s because the pros blah blah blah” there is a weekly quest that nerfs the entire raid until the end of the season to near guarantee completion in addition to the HUGE direct nerfs, the only crests that actually matter and free trash loot.

Don’t come at me, this really isn’t my personal experience…

I’ve cleared heroic raid, I used PvP to slingshot my ilvl early, I’m maxed out heroic gear, pugged completion 10s for mythic vault slots, timed Stone Vault on 10 this last week and will get all my portals this week. I’m not in a rush for portals and was able to progress my character up to the 626 wall this week. Making my only remaining source of progress, pug mythic raid or 10s which I’m ok with with, considering my “limited fixed” play time.

This is what I’ve come up with for why friends who were enjoying the middle of the road game previously aren’t this season, also a bunch of the dungeons suck.

Typed on my phone.

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That’s impressive. Lot of words to type on a phone!

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I mean yeah, they pretty much killed low keys, but low keys don’t matter anyway and they didn’t impact anything of value, because the gears themselves didn’t go anywhere, you’re just pushed to do Delves for them instead, and delves is a straight up more enjoyable game mode period. I have 3 or 4 +11s done already and I was 3k IO last time I played in DF, but I wouldn’t spend even a second in M+ if Delves also gave mythic track gear.

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They’re just overly mechanical, drawn out, boring, linear slop now that’s only fun with friends where the mobs white swing your doo doo tank and is 2 shot with white swings.

Oh they also put meltdown mechanics (ramping buffs/debuffs that wipe the group after a duration) on the mobs now to stop you from chain pulling LOL.

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I just clear normal raid currently for fun. Moving to heroic soon enough

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The biggest problem is that they moved all the m+ goalposts at once. Heroic and mythic vault gear moved to higher keys. Crests moved to higher keys. Tanks and heals nerfed. Mobs, bosses, and aoe damage turned up to 11. They’ll continue undoing their changes until we’re back to a season 3 DF level, hopefully. And all the fanboys will say “See! See guys! They scooped all the floaty bits out of the dogwater! This is the best dogwater ever!! They listen and they care!”

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They could turn Necrotic Wake/Grim Batol into a normal dungeon, I still would have zero desire to go in there. The dungeons suck, period.

Just bring back Freehold, Waycrest and Brackenhide if they’re gonna recycle everything 10 times.

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great post dude i agree with you or not and also im happy for you or sad that happened.

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Honestly good, mythic+ sucks so we need to be getting other ways to get good gear. Also not to sound like a broken record at this point but delves reward heroic gear so players who do delves can actually beat the seasonal boss in ?? Difficulty.

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:rofl::rofl: Snorted my water at this one.

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Or any of the many other dungeons sitting around unused that were popular when they first came out.

Utgarde Keep & Utgarde Pinnacle would be excellent M+ dungeons, but Blizzard would rather rehash Court of Starts for the umpteenth time, instead.

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Not since transmogrification.

Did you just repeat yourself in an attempt to make it look like you have more credence?

Raids have a weekly lockout, Mythic keystone dungeons have no lockout, and Bountiful Delves are tied to the number of Restored Coffer Keys you have (at most earning four per week earning between four and eight per week).

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Eh, more like 6-7, maybe 8 if lucky

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Forgot about Worldsoul Memories and some World Quests reward fragments; I will edit.

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I read it…. Fell asleep twice.

It’s great you take your personal opinion and put people who can’t confirm on this.

The reward system is largely fine.

The one thing you fail to realize are the people that play each of these sections of the game independently of one another. Instead you act like all of these things run together. While they can I don’t believe that is how they were resigned.

Delves were meant really for the casual base of people who like easy, stress free content that is still rewarding them for their time. And these people may largely stop progressing there. But they may keep doing them because they can get together with friends go in and have a good time. The super elitist people will do these for the hero vault, but once they get all hero gear they will never run another delve again so it benefits the. To a degree.

Mythic Plus I think this was a slight oversight by blizzard making delve rewards what they are. But more because the people that like a challenge will do delves to get the gear, then once they are able to get into 7 keys they will run those keys for rewards. Which effectively removes the ability from the player base as a whole to do anything below a 7.

In previous seasons / expansions a player would run a 1-4 key to get the same gear the delves give now. The goal to be to continue working towards higher keys for some players. The issue with low keys is that our community I so toxic to those who are there wanting to have a good time. It’s when these two classes of people meet you have this huge wave of toxicity we all know and love.

Effectively what blizzard did was in all ways but name was create a 5-10 mythic key system. With 1-5 being delves.

Again for mythic plus players we love the idea that we can play for a 30 minute session then spend time with our family. For the elites mythic plus is an added way to get gear.

I spoke to 10000 blades of grass and we all agree.

Lastly for raids the progression system is fine. It is what it always has been. That’s why you have raid loggers.

I say all of this to say that you can be a raider and never do anything except raid, you can do mythic plus and never do anything other than keys, you can also do delves and never delve deeper into the other content and you will for each activity be rewarded for your time. Should you choose to do all activities then you will progress faster in theory then the people who only stick to 1 or 2 of these activities.

Sent from my Ipad

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Appearance is cosmetic, it can be to yourself or others. For example I want the elite PvP set it I look so cool. It can be a component of your social status as in life but not exclusively.

Socially gear can be tied to ilvl and your ability or oh that guy has the mythic tier set or dang that’s the mythic axe from silken court etc.

You can try and pick apart language but they are different.

In a discussion of precieved value or efficiency the fact that you can infinitely grind m+ has little importance without infinite time. 1 hour vs. 22 min x infinity.

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Based on how they’ve been handling the releases they seem to only be revamping 1 pre-WoD dungeon per season and we have yet to see anything pre-Cata.

I’m looking forward to Shrine of the Storm and Seat of the Triumvirate revamps! :slight_smile:

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The fun of WoW is overcoming obstacles w my friends. I’ve never cared how another player acquires gear. Gear is forgettable, fun memories w friends are not.

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Thank you for restating yourself and admitting that “socially” means “appearance”, “perception”, “progression”, and “achievement” - all of which you mentioned before stating “socially”. So yes, you did just repeat yourself to seem like you had more credence.

I tried and succeeded, as you inadvertently admitted above. Cheers, kiddo.

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So you said all of this … (while mocking the post multiple times for going out of my way to provide context) …and in your final paragraph literally layout that the systems may or may not be engaged with together or separately and you will rewarded for your time and thus I refer you to the title or the post … M+ feels devalued.

Also I’ll note that the first person to stoop to mocking and toxic behavior was yourself.

I did like some of your post.