This is just to address the point specifically. But current crafting can fill that spot easily.
3 Likes
Changing topics - Some other questions I have about the changes are:
With the level squish, what will be the impact (if any) on timers and, therefore, the + level to your next key?
Could we change the crests rewarded at the end of the dungeon to be equal to one gear upgrade instead of being 3 short like we currently are? Having very odd numbers of crests from a combination of timing and not timing keys leads to totals like where I’m at now with 179 aspect crests. So, for example, timing a key rewards 15 aspect crests while just completing it gives 5. This keep the increments in line with each other.
Will we continue to not have seasonal affixes since we’re already considerably increasing the difficulty of keys?
Can we please use either crests OR flightstones for upgrades but not both? This is one of the issues I have when I want to start playing an alt is I have the crests to upgrade a piece of gear but not the flightstones.
3 Likes
I was referring to specific loot targeting.
1 Like
I am looking forward to seeing how this will work. It harkens back to the days when you had to spend time in Normal dungeons to get gear to then finally be able to get into Heroics.
I think it’ll be nice, and bring life into the dungeon system of the expansionm, (Potentially allowing them to utilize resources within an expansions lifetime to make more dungeons due to this) by potentially getting even players who did high end mythics to have to at least do Heroics again before advancing into Mythic 0 to then go off into Mythic+.
I think the dungeon system does need life breathed into it. Who knows, this might also allow them to extend resources into allowing players (with maybe limitations per day) to do Follower dungeons at Heroic level?
I can’t wait to see it play out in game. May have a few bumps in the road, but I think overall this is a good change.
4 Likes
You mean like it was before m+ and worked fine for six expansions? This is more the matter of people being used to something and others wanting to take it away. I think it should either be on lockout or at the very least have decreased drop rate to match raid (down to 1 item/dungeon which would move it from 40% chance to 20% chance per dungeon to match the 20%/boss in raids).
But I’m realistic, it won’t happen because it would most likely kill WoW (since the vast majority of endgame player engage with it, willingly or not).
I’m also at the side where the current upgrade system needs to be slowed down even further (rather than accelerated). I’ve heard suggestions from others in the CC that it would be great if things could be eased up later on in the season and that I totally agree on. Let people have fun and play other alts or push keys later on (2-3 months in). But during the early progression, it really needs to be slowed down.
I agree that flightstones needs some adjustments and having it cost flightstones or crests would be pretty solid.
1 Like
I think some of the friction between M+ and raid could be eased if we significantly increased the amount of crests that drop from each boss and reintroduced the weekly loot roll coin from past expansions. It allows players who would rather not do M+ to have more ability to upgrade their gear faster and introduce a little more potential for loot dropping in raid while leaving M+ where it is.
People like me who do both sets of content for fun and to pursue BiS gear will still do it but you could have the option of where to cap your crests each week in the content you want. M+ only players can continue their grind with whatever changes come and raid only players could feel less pressure to do M+ because of the changes I suggested above.
3 Likes
While I don’t agree with this, I like that the change Blizzard is doing is overall being seen as good and that we (as a community) can discuss other ways to solve the remaining issues. It’s great having a discussion regarding this and I think the discussions held both here in the CC forums but also in other forums has been the root for why we got these changes in the first place.
Bonus roll was a great system, want it back but I want it to replace the vault. But that won’t happen, but I’d still be happy to see it return in some way or form.
1 Like
I was apparently in the wrong forum… Whoops Hehe.
To contribute here however.
I think the vault system is an improvement upon this older system. It was rather kind of annoying of having to go out and farm, or pay gold, to get these kinds of additional rolls that 9 times out of 10 turned into rolling for just more gold.
4 Likes
New system is going to take time for people to understand not having such a wide array of Keystone levels, and for us to see how it actually plays out (Looking forward to the PTR).
The way I see this is that it will have zero impact to anyone who does high level content already, however casual or lower skill ceiling players are going to have issues. These players are going to be slowed down a bit more with the weekly M0 lockouts so they cannot farm the gear needed.
The difficulty gap being condensed didn’t get reflected properly in Heroic → M0 → +2 scaling.
A heroic being an old M0 then a new M0 being an equal to an old +10 is a pretty large gap in power gain of the mobs in the dungeon. Sure there is no timer but there is also a loot lockout in M0 which only extends the issue if you don’t get your piece to drop, or lose the roll.
As for straight up changes to the systems, or re-additions:
Bring back Bonus Rolls
Bring back Reforging. Reforging was an amazing portion of the game that let players use a wider array of gear because you could at least salvage some of the secondary stats.
1 Like
I personally didn’t enjoy reforging. It made actual gear matter less, particularly when we can craft a ton of perfectly itemized pieces like we can right now. When you add in catalyzing pieces into tier, even fewer of the specific armor pieces matter. Right now, the only pieces that have a significant impact are trinkets and weapons with incredible procs.
Plus I think reforging was really only useful when hit% mattered since that was awful to balance around. With hit% no longer being a factor, we no longer really need reforging.
2 Likes
I have to agree here, Reforging, while useful… ended up becoming more of a universal “Hunters Loot” problem. What was great for your class as is, was mediocre to another but could potentially be “Reforged” to be okay for them. While great for that player, it left a sour taste in the others mouth.
And as I, changed my post due to my error of posting in the wrong section… oops, stated above, I also do not want to see Bonus rolls come back. As the annoyance of having to go out and either farm for resources to get them or pay gold for them wasn’t fun for me. Especially now if you go back to some of those older expanions that still have that mechanic trying to farm out the resources to get them just isn’t worth it. Especially when 9 times out of 10 you just get gold.
2 Likes
The bonus roll is better than nothing. And on the off-chance you get the loot from a bonus roll that you’ve been farming, or could be potentially farming, for a long time the value of the time saved vastly exceeds the time spent getting whatever the cost of the bonus roll is and/or gold.
Plus, there’s only so much you can do to balance out a raid lockout with M+ which is infinitely farmable.
2 Likes
Because people saw it in ARPGs and asked for it. It’s not about “fairness”, and if it was, then the infinitely farmable (and funnelable via armor stacking) should be removed for “fairness”.
Because A: solutions are not our job (Blizzard has repeatedly said they don’t want to hear them) and B: I’ve explained multiple solutions on these forums already and it gets really repetitive.
Yes. The expectation that you should have full heroic+ gear immediately is insanity.
Yes, raid bosses should drop at least 30 crests (so 1/3rd of the weekly cap). It’s absurd that M+ can hit the weekly cap easily but the raid doesn’t allow it at all until you’re done with progress (and even then, you likely won’t actually cap because you rotate people)
No. Bad items are still bad even with reforging, and we already have way too much control over our stats as it is (thanks to M+ and crafted gear primarily, catalyst to a lesser extent). There being bad items is also a good thing, because it makes the good items stand out more (as long as not every spec wants the same stats). Slightly less relevant reason why it’s bad, but it would cause you to cap out on Raidbots iterations incredibly quickly, with every item having 4 extra variants to take into account.
People also worry way too much about stats already when they don’t matter half as much as they think.
5 Likes
Hello again,
I will be as harsh as possible as I want to emphasize “my” point of view, share my feelings and the feelings of people like me.
- The changes you make are in the right direction.
- Mythic+, the way it is, is destroying the game, is destroying raiding and generally gaming experience for many people like me. Let me explain.
First things first. I do not want to spend 40 hours per week in Mythic+ on any period of any patch, just to be able to keep up gearing up for raiding or just for more Mythic+. This is what happens during the first weeks of each patch. People with 50-60 hours of time to spam Mythic+, doing about 80 to 100 keys per week during the first few resets. This is the reason I quit raiding this tier, for the first time after 20 years of raiding. This is my first tier that I am not actively raiding. I simply can’t keep up and I don’t enjoy having to go through hundreds of dungeons over and over again for the first weeks, just to be able to raid on the highest level. I like raiding, but I cannot give up on real life just because you want to design the game like that and gate raiding behind Mythic+.
And for those who will say “you are not forced to do it”, you are not forced to do anything, but this is a competitive game, raiding was always competitive and guilds do want to pull ahead and kill bosses. They DEMAND you to farm like there’s no tomorrow.
Last but not least regarding this, raiding offers almost nothing anymore gearwise. There is ZERO sense of progress for your gearset during Mythic progression. You just kill for the kills and aim as high as you can. Your character is not progressing through it as it used to do in the past, because you SHOULD already have all the gear at max from M+ within the first few weeks. Excluding a trinket maybe or a weapon that you can get somewhere along Mythic progression, which is very demotivating, cause it’s just one item, which might be from the last few bosses and you might not even get it as your team will have to extend over and over again. - I did enjoy the difficulty of Mythic+ on this season in comparison to the previous one, so I hope you don’t mess that up. I want to be able to farm the max ilvl rewards on the vault without hitting my head against the wall. This was a pleasant experience in comparison to the previous tier. Keep it this way.
This is “my point of view” and I do not expect people to embrace it, nor I want to. I’m just saying that people like me simply cannot keep up playing with the current system.
Thanks for reading.
2 Likes
It would benefit the discussion if you would actually, at least, copy-paste these solutions here again.
But this “expectation” is not a blanket statement for all levels of play at all. No one is enforcing this across all guilds in any way. Any AOTC or chill Mythic guild has no reason to “expect” this (and if they do expect it, these people are just dumb as its completely unnecessary)
However, if you are gunning for m+ title or CE on a particular tier, getting a head start tied to work (farming gear) is something a player wants.
Why remove it if the specific group of gamers aiming for that level of play want it to exist and it shouldn’t affect the rest of players (aside a particularly misguided raid lead here and there)?
Hi, I want to address what you say. Let me quote twice:
These two statements are somewhat contradictory to me. I might be dead wrong here but it seems you are not exactly on the cutting edge of prog (which is where hero gear is expected on the first few weeks) but, rather, that you’ve faced crazy Raid Leads thinking that gear is what is halting their early Mythic Raid prog (it isn’t).
Again, sorry if I’m mistaken but all this farmable hero loot problem centers on this perceived “global expectation” of hero gear within the first few weeks and you could very well argue that anything bellow HoF Guilds have no reason to expect such a thing.
I never said I am at the cutting edge, nor I care about it.
I do care though to have a decent pace and enviroment and to be able to kill bosses on mythic.
My guild was always ending on the last couple of bosses for each tier. Our raid leading was always excellent, but our skill and determination was not at cutting edge, kinda close as we did get a CE in the past. This expansion is so unfair for teams like ours cause we literally need to farm our a** to be able to have a chance to kill anything. Ended up on the 5th boss on both first tiers and this tier we decided that is not worth it. And not just our officers, but 80% of the team had the same feelings that I share here (about 18 people).
Also, you need to keep a decent pace up as the lower you are the less recruitment you will get incoming and this is a major problem for teams who are mainly consisting of family guys 
I’ll write it out again and just bookmark it for the future so I don’t have to dig:
-
Dungeon loot pool drastically reduced (2, absolute max 3 options per slot) but items are shared between dungeons. This way you can vary up the dungeons you run a bit (so you don’t have to drag a tank to a dungeon whose only notable drop is a caster trinket), and it’s easier to hit a specific item from the weekly vault
-
Key level required for vault rewards shifted up across the board (by 5-10 levels easily), the required levels are too low and have been since day 1 of Legion. Very few people should be able to max it out week 1 of the season.
-
End of dungeon farmable loot is gone. You choose 1 run per week per “upgrade track bracket” (Hero, Myth etc) that drops a guaranteed item from that dungeon’s loot pool at vault ilevel, using the bonus roll UI. Later in the season or with a (high relative to the reward) rating requirement this can go to 2)
-
Raid bosses drop 1/3rd of weekly crest cap each (up from 1/9th or so). Not being able to cap from raid until farm (if even on farm) is just dumb.
-
Raid vault unlocks are 1/2/4 bosses at most, so you can actually fill vaults during progress like M+ can. Still has the restriction of needing to unlock drops, so likely still worse than M+ vault.
The result for M+ is that you get more high quality loot (good for M+ players), less low quality loot (good for healthy gear progression), better odds of hitting the thing you want from M+ vault (good for everybody) and need to put in more effort to reach high ilevel (good for closer reward:effort between raid and M+)
The result for raid is that you can actually fill your weekly crest cap and vault slots with the difficulty you’re progressing, instead of being over half way through progress and still having vault slots from the difficulty below yours (or entirely blank). You still realistically need to do M+ for the weekly “bonus roll” runs and vault, but at least no mindless grinding. Depending on how high the key levels are set, this could be eliminated as well, similar to how PvP is not worth the effort anymore because the (PvE) ilevel is just not high enough unless you’re dedicated to and very good at the content.
I think that covers all the points I usually try to hit.
And you shouldn’t even have that option. That’s the entire issue. You get a “head start” which snowballs into nobody being able to outgear bosses anymore after the first 100 or so guilds because there’s simply no more gear to get.
Raiders generally speaking don’t, certainly not at the higher end where it actually matters/gets enforced. The vast majority of people I play with and talk to would love to just never enter a key again ideally, and certainly don’t want to farm them for full heroic gear early in the season. The ones that do want to do keys want to push keys, not farm easy ones.
5 Likes
I have to say, I really like the changes that were announced/datamined today. The Halls changes in particular are really nice. I didn’t do any PvE content in season 1 so I can’t really speak to those 4 dungeons, but these are very good quality of life changes.
Some feedback about S4 new dungeon scaling.
I geared some alts in season 4 and it does seem like skipping heroic dungeons in favor of crafting is the better way as you can fully craft 486 pieces on new characters (with the help of the dreamsurge green orbs easily). World content weekly rewarding 480-500 ilvl gear also makes them pretty useless.
I feel heroic dungeons reward should be scaled up to what +6 gave in the past so the difference with m0s shouldn’t be as high and it shouldn’t feel like a huge step. I think it makes sense that heroic dungeons at least be as challenging as LFR and reward comparable loot. Because currently I don’t see much reason to run them even on new characters.