I mean, it’s not balance then. Either the class, in the right hands, is ridiculously strong (EN) where it outputs almost 1.5x other classes dps. Or the class, in the vast majority of the player bases hands, looks like a second rate DPS that shouldn’t be brought to the team.
It sounds like a great thing, but in reality… it really isn’t. The margin is too wide. At least that’s how I see it, but tbh… I’m no major SPriest, so my perception could be wrong.
As I said, this is the same problem that feral druids have had for years. Why bring a feral druid, when you could settle for a DH/Rogue? Even if the DH/Rogue is an average player, they’ll still do decent DPS. Whereas the feral has to be god tier to even compete.
Considering we got Pathfinder in the end… yeah, I don’t really think this is a winning line of argument in this case.
As far as “conviction to play one character”, that’s part of why I play heroic content instead of Mythic. I play what I want to play, and that kind of attitude and mindset in a world where you’re expected to chase the meta is incompatible with the highest levels of content. That’s the reality I have accepted.
And I’d hate to see feral gutted in the same way that #removevoidform fans are suggesting. It could be slightly simplified, but I’d hate to see too much of a change there.
This also goes to my problem - people want to gut feral because it is the off-spec for a bear druid. I don’t want anyone to expect me to play feral, and I also don’t want feral gutted for guardian druids playing it as an off-spec. When I dabbled with Feral to get my brawler’s guild shirt, I had a lot of fun learning how to maximize the DPS for the fights. It felt super rewarding. It’s not raiding, sure, I can see some feral mains getting “fatigue” because it is involved, but I would hate to see it gutted.
Then you have a lot of people go to Moonkin because it is face-roll in comparison. I think skill-based specs should have slightly higher pay-offs but also massive penalties for lack of performance. The problem is there’s very little to no pay-off because Blizzard sometimes gets scared when Method class-stacks.
For which most people still hate? Personally, I don’t mind PF that much. My only real contention with it is the PF part 2 requirement that comes with it. If it was just part 1, and part 1 took 2-3 months to complete. I’d be perfectly fine with it. If covenant locks were in the game for 2 months, then I’d probably be fine with them too.
So you play in the content where these conversations literally don’t matter… then try to dictate to those of us who play in the content where these conversations do matter… how we should play in our content?
Are… Are you joking?
If you don’t want to play separate specs… don’t. Don’t fight for systems that restrict how I want to play the game, simply because you don’t enjoy that style of play. Just don’t play that way.
Except that’s the problem when it comes to voidform. Slightly simplified voidform is super boring to play. Fun voidform is overpowered to play. That’s the problem that I’ve seen from this.
As for feral, that’s a whole other can of worms. Either way, the point being when you make the difference between a novice and a master too great, you run into issues with gameplay. Because if it requires a master to be competitive with one class relative to a novice from another class… that’s when you start seeing social dynamics go against the harder class. It’s happened repeatedly for over a decade.
Yeah… you missed what I’m saying. Yes, I don’t play content where I’ll be expected to swap from guardian to feral so that the DK can tank the fight because there’s some huge magic damage that my bear just can’t handle. The fact that spec swapping exists and is expected is exactly what is driving me away. If you couldn’t swap specs and we had to just let the chips fall and the content was tuned accordingly, then I would play it.
I don’t know if we’re on the same wave-length here. I’m saying I want something because I can’t play it the way it is now. You’re saying I shouldn’t have what I want because I’m not playing it and so it doesn’t matter. It matters because I’m not able to play it without compromising the way I want to play.
And one problem I foresee is that you can’t change community perception in a single patch or expansion release. The sad reality is that there will be a very harsh divide between the new Covenant system and the min-max mentality, and instead of people accepting imperfection, I imagine lots of folks will just get benched for fights they aren’t suited to, which is pretty awful.
Still, the problem has fester for a long time, and if you want to try to change things, you have to try to rip the bandage off at some point. If 10.0 is WoW 2 like I suspect it will be, then they’ll want to be laying the groundwork now. You have to tackle it eventually it you want to change it, and you don’t want a lot of rage clouding the conversation if 10.0 is indeed WoW 2.
No, I see where he’s going with it. But it would take a fundamental shift in the entire mentality of the end-game to do what he’s asking. We’d have to go back to it taking a month to level, another month to gear, and hard disincentives against swapping specs. That’s in essence what older versions of WoW was. But that’s not how WoW has been for a loooong time. What he’s looking for… is BC and maybe a hint of Wrath.
What doesn’t make sense though… is that he’s already in the content that gives him exactly what he wants. He can play… exactly how he wants, with almost zero repercussions. What he’s asking for… is to now exert his method of play… onto everyone. Including the players… that can’t think like he does (and may not even want to think like he does). And that’s where I draw the line. WoW can be played many ways. Striving to play optimally isn’t an aberrant method of play.
The real sad reality of it… is that the min-max mentality has been there all along. We just sucked at it before. Now we don’t. It isn’t going away, because it’s always been there. All you’re doing is pissing people off, for no real gain.
Oh, and I simply can’t wait for people to complain about being rejected from M+ for their covenant choices.
On the plus side, they’re very likely going to be releasing classic BC. So you’ll have your game mode (and I will too as I’ll probably quit retail progression for BC).
I’ve said this other places, but he, Ralph, and others hold an authoritarian position. They can experience everything they want right now. They don’t have to switch covenants, even if they were opened up. They don’t have to engage in competitive content. They don’t have to “follow the meta.” The list goes on. The current system affects us, not them.
Look, I’ll say this - I’m not the decider. Ion Hazzikostas is. Even if I was okay with a system that was much more open, the reality of the situation is that Blizzard wants to push Covenants the way they are.
I like Covenants, I don’t think they’re the devil, I guess you’re free to feel they’re bad, but don’t think that I hate you just because I think what they’re doing is cool. I also don’t think it’s fair to attack Ion Hazzikostas just because he thinks it is profitable to serve up content to someone like me than someone like you. The simple fact of the matter is a lot of the hardcore players will play the game regardless. I won’t. If I don’t like what I’m seeing, and I feel it’s detracting from my fun or not exciting, I’ll just stop playing.
I guess I’m authoritarian because I want to have fun? Uhh… okay bub.
To be clear, I only think they’re bad in the sense of progression style play. If I had a more relaxed approach to the game, like you (not saying that’s bad), then I’d be right there with you. I just see the potential problems this system will likely cause for those with a different approach to the game. And there’s nothing wrong with their approach to the game.
I completely agree. This is no ones fault, and there’s no one to blame. At the end of the day we’re just discussing what we like in our video game.
I have yet to run into a system that fully kills the game for me. But in regards to this system, I’m not sure how providing a choice of the abilities would ruin the game for you. Would it change the in game dynamics? Sure. But if you’re already playing the game with the attitude of putting how you enjoy to play above min/max (and are pushing content where it makes sense to do that)… then it makes no sense to enforce covenant ability locks. You can already play how you want to play without locks in place.
The problem… is for players that do want to take it to the next step. You’re locking us out of how we enjoy to play the game. And that’s why we’re balking at the system.
It would feel soulless. Garrisons had Garrison abilities but the choices you made felt completely hollow and meaningless because they had no relevance to the experience of playing the expansion. Why should I care about Covenants without any meaning behind them? What is the meat of the expansion? Covenants are the big ticket feature of the expansion meant to rival a new class. Such a change would reduce them to glorified rep grinds. “Well technically the powers draw inspiration from the Covenants” - nobody cares. Nobody cares if your Azerite power shoots out a wave and Battle for Azeroth has an ocean theme. It’s just arbitrary and fake and it just doesn’t feel cohesive at all. I don’t feel like I progressed my character when I get shoulder pads that shoot out a water bolt, and I don’t feel like I progressed my character when I get some pants that create tentacles. It feels “tagged on”.
The Covenant abilities, soul-binds, it all feels rooted in the fantasy of progressing some deep, spiritual bond within the character and awakening my own character’s power. But when you’re just going to a menu and replacing an angel spear with a Vampire banner, it feels completely unnatural. Like Essences. I hate the essence systems. At least with talents you often have “BIS” talents and you’re not swapping them too often, so your character feels like it has some consistency. Maybe you swap for a fight here and there but usually the changes aren’t that radical either. Meanwhile, essences had you fiddling around with a library searching for skill gems and doing a bunch of swaps is just not how I envision the experience of playing the game. It blows my mind that people think that adding more essence-like mechanics is a good thing.
If I want to swap stuff around for a fight, let me swap some trinkets, swap one or two talents. This idea of completely changing your whole identity from one fight to the next feels so against the spirit of creating a character.
The covenants change how you interact with the entirety of shadowlands. They each have separate storylines/campaigns, and separate progression paths. They each have different weekly content to participate in, and that content sounds like it’s varied in type. They each have their own separate rewards and cosmetic upgrades.
And again… if you’re that bent out of shape… then stay true to your covenant and don’t swap.
Because it gives you more control over how you play your character? Because it let’s you alter your gameplay, sometimes completely altering your rotation? Because it’s… fun?
As much as I enjoy RP… WoW’s story is no where near engaging enough to carry this game on its own. Like not even close. If you’re that hard into RP, then join an RP realm and create your own stories. Cause let’s be real here… at no point in this games life has there been any serious investment in the story… except maybe Wrath. But that had WC3 to draw from. The recent Saurfang story was neat as well, but that’s down to the out of game cinematic team. Not due to the in-game cut scenes.
Isn’t that the point? Shadowlands needs to work overtime to make you care. It’s certainly not going to help itself by reducing your Covenant into a simple rep grind.
What I will say… is that if we get to the last boss… and it almost straight up requires a specific covenant (or adds around 200 pulls to do it without it)… I’m going to be very… VERY pissed.
And if any of you tell me it’s my own fault for doing that content… and I should “expect” that… seriously… just go jump in a lake.
I’ve been saying the decisions are being split 4 ways
Gameplay vs Meta vs Aesthetic vs Convenience
You need to break them up
You have a choice of 3 Soulbonds, what if you could pick from the pool? Take Bonesmith Mistblade and General, and to swap in a new one it take 5-7 days. With some Soulbinds being too loyal, requiring their specific covenant. Ease of access, so you can experiment, but still having the rp flavor and discouraging extreme swapping.
And abilities need to be detached from aesthetic choices, so how about questlines focused on winning the support of other covenants to your cause and your covenants forces. Allowing you to earn other abilities and stay where you wanted to be all along. Restricting swaps to twice per day (so if you goof off you won’t be locked in, ruining the day if you don’t like how it plays), discouraging boss and trash pack swapping.
I have a feeling it’s a bit too late to set up whole fulfilling questlines for this, so it’d likely be a 9.0.5 or something.