We’ve got a top5 spec for Mekka and a top5 spec for Jaina’s p3. We bring nothing extra, and we’re generally under-tuned, but you can’t be a powerhouse every tier.
If the outliers were brought closer to the middle and there wasn’t so much spread cleave, Mages would’ve been just fine on the overall aggregate. Fight design caused the discrepancy between Mages/Hunters/Melee and the 5? specs capable of spread cleave, and the issues Mages have won’t be addressed in minor hotfixes.
We’re not going to see Mages buffed to the point we can compete on fights our class doesn’t synergize with at all. Optimize around the few strengths we have, adapt, and give hopefuly feedback, or just reroll until next tier if the aggregate on farm bosses matters that much.
You’re an extremely good player who knows how to play perfectly and you make it harder on the average mage. Mage is not fun to play - none of the specs. It takes way too much micromanagement. It takes way too much “perfect” play to execute at a high level. It was beginning to feel this way in Legion, and BFA stripped away all the perks that made Mage easier to play. Mage needs to be completely reworked. The damage numbers are decent for the best of the best players, but it’s way too annoying and overly complicated/RNG dependent depending which spec you’re playing.
The juice is just not worth the squeeze anymore for Mage. They slowly dismantled it in Legion (but we had the damage numbers to make it through that xpac), but now in BFA it is absolutely garbage and needs to be reworked completely.
Does anyone else think the design philosophy of: “No major changes until the next expansion” is misguided?
I get that some things can’t be hotfixed in and actually do require significant testing and/or time on the PTR to really get dialed in and tuned properly. But if your only metric is indeed whether or not the players are having fun, and a significant number of players of a certain spec (e.g. fire) are saying they are not having fun, shouldn’t you be working towards making that spec fun again? Or at least acknowledging that you understand their feedback and what they are saying?
My main issue with fire is that it just isn’t fun. I think the spec is plenty viable (at least for raiding). I also think that BoDa’s success in terms of fun is only rivaled by its failure in terms of fight design. And despite this failure fire does still have its moments of glory.
Having a viable class is one thing. But having a fun class that players enjoy playing is another. Just because fire is viable does not mean that it is fun to play. I honestly don’t care how great the new content is if the spec I’m going to be playing it on is just not enjoyable.
I respect the hell out of Keestus, easily one of the best mages around. That being said it does nothing for mages that he is in the top 5 for mekka and taking a warlock or elemental shaman easily overshadows the benefit a fire mage brings to p3 jaina.
I think the examples provided actually hurt us. It shows how we are only brought for insanely specific reasons that aren’t that important over another class. P3 jainas execute damage can be matched easily. Mekka is just shot for shot and our damage gets high if we RNG proc, again easily matched by less RNG dependent classes. So its more of a hope we get lucky fight.
Now the only thing I would give to us is as frost mages it makes it INSANELY more helpful on stormwall. There is never a raid tier where there isnt spread cleave/aoe. At least we shouldn’t be 3-4k dps behind the top 5 on warcraft logs. This does not include anything people can cheese to pad their logs even more on fights.
The argument is not “we are useless” its that it is unrewarding and not reasonable how far behind we are. The fights in the example we arent even far ahead we are barely beating people out if at all.
Look at it this way, keestus is an amazing mage. Even he (besides the fights specified) is not up there in the top 5 of his guild. They have not cleared jaina either it seems like? Now imagine having a few of those top 5s replaced with mages. Im sure they would not even be halfway through mythic. It would not be because they lack utility as a guild or the skill. It would be because they would not meet dps checks if their team was composed of mostly mages.
Using that example put in boomkin, warlock, elemental shammy, shadow priest. Stack those classes/specs and you are going to be fine.
That’s another huge issue. Yea we have ice block and a barrier that does nothing but we are severely lacking any sort of consistent defensives that matter.
Compared to every other ranged spec who also consistently blows us out of the water in damage, it’s rough.
The way it stands now we have crap survivability with crap damage and comparatively terrible utility. What exactly is the point of our class?
The problem is there is a ton of spread cleave. Mage is a pure dps spec and you think being top 5 for 2 out of 9 fights is acceptable? Its not. Mage is a pure dps class we should have a top 5 option on almost every single fight. How do you propose mages adapt to having trash spread cleave? This wasnt on just farm bosses either, this was an issue for the entire bod raid tier.
we just need to see the new nazjatar az traits. Ele shamans only became OP on ST because of igneous potential. You don’t need class redesign to buff a class when they have azerite traits
Yes, it is. This is not the past where classes with tank/healing specs are punished for it. It’s fine if you are behind on cleave fights that other specs are strong in. That said I think there were too many cleave bosses which really undervalued single target classes.
The only problem would be if those same specs cleave specs are also better in single target as clearly mages and the other specs that are more single target focused should have their advantages there.
I agree that mages could use some work, I think every class should have something special they can bring to the raid and I don’t think buffs like INT should count. Sham, for example, have a few fights where their totems are really useful this raid and I want something like that for every class.
Quote exactly what I said that is a lie and then prove it, please. I never said Mages are #1 at single target and that the only real problem would be if the cleave specs out DPS single target specs on single target fights, something that I know at least Ele is doing atm and I find wrong.
If we look at Warcraft logs and the only real single target fight (People still cleave some on Jaina right?) Mekka the only Specs better than the #1 Arcane mage are Ele, Aff and Destro. Honestly, in a single target situation like that, an Arcane Mage should be better as with my Understanding all three of those specs are pretty good at cleave fights.
I will say this again, there were too many Cleave bosses this raid and it really screwed over the more single target focused specs.
Right, so what can be done about over-abundant spread-cleave once a tier has already released? There is no solution other than a mid-expansion rework of a class(which we know won’t happen,) or to have a better designed raid that offers opportunities for every spec to shine next tier. We don’t have spread cleave, the raid favors spread cleave, and to buff Mages to the point they’re top 5 on every fight would make Mages problematic outliers themselves.
The issue that matters isn’t “the state of Mages,” it’s sloppy raid design that doesn’t mesh with class design.
We could use %aura buffs going into next tier, Fire needs a way to scale Critical Strike rating, Ice Lance needs to be stronger relative to Frostbolt spam, and Arcane needs to be less reliant on Equipoise and its AoE/Cleave/Execute traits need a buff. Spec maintenance being completely neglected in BFA sucks, but even if all of Mage’s major issues were fixed we’d still not break middle-of-the-pack in the overall aggregate.
IMO, specifically, conclave and rasta were too easy. The difficulty curve is great other than those 2. But most guilds jumped from 4/9 to 6/9 in 1-2 days and it really had a weird effect on the pacing of the raid. And Jaina is kind of hard for the wrong reasons (though it’s getting better with the hotfixes).
yeah but the guy is saying the entire tier is a joke and i disagree with that opinion. sure conclave and rasta were push overs but the rest of the fights felt good.
I will break it down since you got very defensive.
The first thing I quoted, we are not just behind on fights where cleave classes pull ahead, we are FAR behind on straight single target as well. The way you worded that whole first paragraph is you devaluing are argument by saying it is fine because its all cleave.
The second quote. You quoted someone saying it is not acceptable to be top 5 for only 2 fights as a pure dps spec. You straight said yes it is. That is not okay in any type of way what so ever.
The last quote. That is exactly what is happening. Cleave specs are doing better on single target and DESTROYING us on cleave. You are agreeing and disagreeing with this entire thread at the same time. pick a side.
Yes because it is fine if we suck on cleave fights compared to specs that are good at it. There is nothing wrong with that if you have a problem, rather than asking for crazy single target damage that can compare to someone cleaving ask for a change to one of the mage specs that make them great at cleaving.
Again this is ok, you don’t need to be the best there are a ton of specs and this whole raid is cleaving, the only single target fight is Mekka and Arcane is one of the best there in terms of damage. The whole argument that because we only have dps specs we should be the best is a really bad opinion. All specs should be balanced with their own strengths and weakness, one of mages is cleaving damage in raids. They are great in PvP and other situations but they need to bring something more useful to raids I agree.
That’s why I said it’s wrong. They have busted traits it’s not a Mage problem in terms of damage it’s those specs that are a problem.
You and a few others are too aggressive over your opinions on this issue. All I asked for was what you claimed I lied about and you have shown nothing. All you guys are asking for is to do busted single target damage on cleave fights which would just make the class another problem and a god in single target after this raid tier.