Morality of the Horde

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

I think the point is - while many Old Horde Rock chewers see Sylvanas fans as mindless obsessed “Waifu” Fans … Sylvanas fans might see the Old Horde Rock chewers as supporters of a racist and failed ideology to an obsessive degree.

It goes both ways.

Huh, well yeah, yes it does. Kalimdor Horde fans see Sylvanas fans as overtly obsessive while Sylvanas fans see Kalimdor Horde fans as conservative to a fault.

I dont mind Thrall. But I dont need him lecturing me about anything.

And vice versa. I could care less about what Sylvanas does on her own time, but i most certainly don’t need her to tell me how this Horde is worth fighting for when she’s running around disrepecting the more traditionalist members of the Horde.(like mocking Saurfang’s dead son or descrating dead Horde soldiers.)

He appointed Garrosh in part because he didn’t think the Orcs would follow a non Orc. Instead of choosing one of the better candidates: Cairne or Voljin.

Thankfully enough, he eventualy did after finally seeing how well a non-Orc can unite the Horde in a state of unrest. But to be fair, any Orc would be unsure about appointing a non-orc warchief for the for time in history, since they are such a traditionalist race breaking tradition probably would be a big step out of their comfort zone. Similarly to how none of the elves accepted Nathanos as the first human ranger lord of the elves.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

Thankfully enough, he eventualy did after finally seeing how well a non-Orc can unite the Horde in a state of unrest. But to be fair, any Orc would be unsure about appointing a non-orc warchief for the for time in history, since they are such a traditionalist race breaking tradition probably would be a big step out of their comfort zone. Similarly to how none of the elves accepted Nathanos as the first human ranger lord of the elves.

I think this comparison makes Sylvanas seem the better leader.

When Sylvanas encountered any opposition to Nathanos being a Ranger Lord - she backed making him a Ranger Lord anyway. One could say her feelings pushed her to fight for Nathanos - but his skill was there to be tested and he met the standards. Her feelings alone would not matter if he lacked skill.

When Thrall encountered perceived racial bias…he caved and chose Garrosh. Cairne or Voljin would have been better leaders - but he didn’t think his people would accept a non Orc as leader.

I dont think its a big deal. But since you mentioned these 2 events, it does speak to how they dealt with racial issues.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

but his skill was there to be tested and he met the standards.

That’s exactly what i mean. It’s hard to just break tradition in both cases if the non-race lacks the ideal traits that are expected. Like you said Nathanos would not have gotten the position if all he had was Sylvanas’s affection. In this case, i think the problem was that Thrall refused to make any non-Orc Warchief unless they proved themselves that they are qualified in some way. Now to be fair, Cairne and Vol’jin were far more qualified to be Warchief than Garrosh. However, it was the fact that they were relatively “unproven” in regards to gaining support from all the races which was the issue.

When Thrall encountered perceived racial bias…he caved and chose Garrosh. Cairne or Voljin would have been better leaders - but he didn’t think his people would accept a non Orc as leader.

You’re rrr—. You’re rrriii-. You’re right!! Ok, you’re right.

Must be this nog that might be loosening my toungue.

I dont think its a big deal. But since you mentioned these 2 events, it does speak to how they dealt with racial issues.

It really isn’t, it’s just that racial issues within the Horde weren’t really a thing until the prospect of a non-Orc warchief was noted as an option during the Shattering.

But also take note that the Sylvanas we’re using in this scenario is the living version. The one who still posessed a moral compass and who still posessed “living qualities” like compassion and empathy.

[Kkw-emerald-dream]

Ahh, it’s not allowing me to post on Borgia anymore due to my faction change.

I sincerely hope that the end game for BFA is not a splitting of the two distinct ideologies of the Horde but rather recognition that both have been fundamental reasons for why people play Horde. I mean that in the meta sense. I enjoy both and it’s rather obnoxious to hear people claim certain races aren’t “true Horde”. Really? Someone who has been playing a Forsaken since Vanilla or a Blood Elf since BC isn’t Horde? If all of the asinine plot arcs in BFA lead to the death of the “true Horde” narrative then I’ll be happy and consider this mess worth it. Whoever gave that interview about how nothing was solved after MoP was correct as there are still Horde players who think half the races don’t belong in their Horde.

Yea, I agree with ya there, seems like some are spreading that ideology

I dont mind Thrall. But I dont need him lecturing me about anything. He appointed Garrosh in part because he didn’t think the Orcs would follow a non Orc. Instead of choosing one of the better candidates: Cairne or Voljin.

I think it’s fair to say he’s made some pretty… dumb and bad choices for the Horde. though, we all are imperfect.

It won’t be staying long.

This doesn’t exactly solidify anything

Well thats the Warchief’s motto regardless of who sits on the throne.

However, I am enjoying this moment where the Forsaken made everyone shake in their boots and cry foul.

It’s a nice break to be following Forsaken around as they plague their enemies. Instead of Orc Orc Orc all day. I like experiencing the diversity of the Horde, in aesthetic and philosophy.

I completely agree with this, it’s nice to finally shed some light on the story of the other races of the Horde, maybe we can get a little more Tauren and new race stuff in the coming future:).

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

What do you think Metzen’s vision for the Horde was or has he talked about that?

Playing the so-called evil races, but as good guys. I’ll look up the exact quote later when I get a chance.

I finally found the quote. This is from an AMA with several different WoW developers. I can’t post links, so remove spaces from the address below to see it.
https:// www .reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/9fb2bo/john_staats_ama_author_of_the_world_of_warcraft/

The question is near the bottom, from a user named Qayindo. He had two questions, so I’ll just quote the relevant parts. Bolding is mine.

Qayindo: I wonder about the Forsaken. What inspired the dev team (or maybe just Chris Metzen) to invent the Forsaken (or at least them being a Scourge breakaway)? Was it just so that there would be non-Scourge Undead as a playable Race? To have “Good Undead”?

Bo Bell: … Early on, the Horde was definitely considered the “evil” faction. The Forsaken were going to be the undead player race (they weren’t called Forsaken yet). Possibly even part of the Scourge. Metzen was still writing WCIII at the time and nothing was solid yet. Once WCIII was done it was obvious that players couldn’t be Scourge, what with being minions of the Lich King and all. But they were still totally evil. Obviously.

But then, there was the epiphany that some people were into playing evil races/factions. Whereas a LOT more people wanted to play as these “evil races” (Forsaken not included) but as the good guys (Thrall’s Orcs during WCIII).

So, Metzen needed to come up with something for the undead. We seriously considered dropping them, but every time we looked at concepts/in game assets we balked. Then he announced the Forsaken.

And there was much rejoicing. =)