I agree, but I can also understand that there are others who like Rapid Fire as is.
Ya, but it does pitiful damage. Chimera Shot in WoD did 660% weapon damage, with Aimed Shot doing 500% weapon damage. Aimed Shot currently does 248.4% AP, which would suggest that Chimera Shot should do 327.9% AP to have comparable strength to WoD CS. SL CS does 79.092% AP. For comparison, Arcane Shot does 60% AP, and 105% AP with Precise Shots. SL CS also has a 15s CD, compared to 9s in WoD.
The SL rendition of Chimera Shot is CS really only in name. It is an absolutely pitiful ability under the current tuning. Now, it’s still very likely the strongest option on that row, since Streamline adds something like 132% as much damage per minute as CS does per cast (though that’s before accounting for the energy gains from Streamline, and the potential synergy with Lethal Shots). But I wouldn’t count getting CS back as a win. We’re not getting WoD CS back, we’re getting an Arcane Shot with a different graphic, a single target cleave, and a 15s CD.
Ya, the problem with the last two is that Blizzard flat out ignored nearly all feedback during both, and they basically gave up halfway through the BfA one. I remember, I was there, pleading with them to fix the massive amount of issues with the second rework.
Instead, they ignored us completely for ~2-3 months, then slapped in some haphazard changes to fix the most glaring issues (adding Multi-Shot to Precise Shots, since it otherwise had no use in AoE. Changing our mastery to affect all shots, rather than just focus-spenders, because Rapid Fire would be scaled out of the rotation otherwise. Adding haste-scaling to AiS’s CD) and called it good.
Trueshot was a complete dumpster fire until 8.1 completely rebuilt it. Explosive Shot was a useless skillshot. Lethal Shots was only useful in a Steady Focus Steady Shot spam meme build. Piercing Shot was a straight DPS loss over no talent at all, something we were telling them about way back during the early beta. Volley had a hilarious average interval between procs of nearly 30 seconds.
Like, the only way another rework would be effective is if they get their heads out of their collective rearward cavities and listen to the players. But Blizzard doesn’t do that anymore. They know exactly how they want to design this game, and they apparently don’t care one wit if that vision drives off 95% of their player base. Well, they’ll learn it the hard way, I guess.
I mean, we had a spell named Rapid Fire. But it was the equivalent of Trueshot. The current iteration of Rapid Fire is similar in literally only its name. There’s absolutely nothing iconic about keeping the current RF. It’s not the spell we’ve had since Vanilla. It’s an abomination. It doesn’t even thematically fit. We’re a marksman. Why the hell would we give up on careful accuracy so we can sit there spasming as we chuck a dozen arrows down range in the span of a single breath, which might I remind you is also hilariously impossible using any of the weapons we have access to (a bow, a crossbow, or a flintlock rifle)?
I’d much rather have a signature shot that is an instant nuke. Windburst, Piercing Shot, Chimera Shot, I don’t care. It plays better, it feels better, and it fits better thematically. It’s absolutely criminal that they didn’t roll Windburst in baseline, in my opinion.
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I don’t have any way of proving this but I really do think this, along with certain glaring BM talent issues (some of which are still unfixed in the SL alpha) was a result of the amount of time and effort they devoted to the SV rework and its talents. While these issues cruised all the way through the BFA testing phase SV was getting routine talent revisions. SV had entirely new talents designed and implemented only to be replaced with other entirely new talents in later builds (e.g. Arctic Bola, a brand new ability, replaced later with Wildfire Infusion IIRC).
Now I get SV Hunters bragging to me about how SV must be the best-designed Hunter spec because it has the most talent choice. Well, that tends to happen when they spent all their time designing Hunter talents on SV in particular.
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I would love if the HFC 4 set was baseline to hunters. (those who dont remember, it made Aimed Shot to be instant cast).
Then you could return Arcane Shot to generate focus and get rid of steady shot.
But to not make us lose a buttom, add back the artifact MM ability, being the only with a cast, but make it so that we can cast while moving.
That would be a good start to “fix” MM to me.
Blizzard could literally remove Rapid Fire, buff focus gen on steady shot significantly (to 20 per) and we would be to rationally fine.
They would replace RF with the OG chimera shot (240% weapon damage at a minimum) and change all the corresponding talents to fit it.
I think given our current focus problems we would need chimera shot to cost no focus and just be a CD ability that we manage through talents. Like lethal shots reducing CD, true shot reducing CD, streamline now becomes Chimera Cleave (chimera now hits two targets).
Having all of our spell to spell interaction with a very cool instant cast spell would be more “MM” than spamming rapid fire.
This leaves MM with the ability to two target cleave with chimera, but we won’t excel at it compared to other classes. While still having out 3-6 target cleave.
Agreed, but it’s WAY too soon to complain about tuning. Numbers on alpha are completely bonkers right now.
Tuning happens in Beta, and again during PTR and prepatch, then again shortly after raids open. There will be many opportunities for Blizzard to change the AP coefficient. There are few opportunities for Blizzard to change fundamental mechanics once the game leaves alpha.
Or keep Rapid Fire as the baseline and make Chimaera Shot a Rapid Fire replacement (dealing suitable damage), generating 10 Focus per target hit. That’s the same Focus generation as Rapid Fire in single target, double the Focus with 2 or more targets, and it would benefit from Trueshot, Trick Shot, Lethal Shots, any new passives they add via set bonuses or whatever, etc.
It would get all the benefits you mention, keep Rapid Fire for those who want it, and require the least amount of design work to implement.
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I don’t know if it needs major rework, but I do think that it needs to have more meaningful talents that change the way we can play. I think the same goes for survival hunters tbh.
The WOTLK chimera shot, for instance, is my all time favorite ability in WOW. It’s been changed a bunch over the years, but the original shot provided utility, mobility over aimed shot, and was a satisfying button to press when it came up in your rotation because it packed some nice burst damage and had a cool visual. These are all things that MM is missing now. I would love to be able to spec into a chimera build that replaces aimed shot so that I can cut down the number of cast bars.
I’ve played a hunter since TBC and it feels like none of the original class remains. It feels like there is no hunter class anymore, just 3 completely different specs. MM is practically forced into not having a pet, which is the only ‘baseline’ feature of the hunter remaining.
I was hoping that in shadowlands they would add some baseline synergy back into the class, but I feel that is clearly not the case because a lot of the feedback is that arcane shot feels awkward. I would personally enjoy it if they added back the numerous stings we’ve had in the past into the game as baseline abilities and then gave synergy with those stings & arcane shot to all three specs. That way, the specs actually ties into the class we are playing.
Also (just my personal opinion), chimera should replace aimed shot as the main MM ability. In this hypothetical, with stings added back into the game as baselines, you can create synergy with the baseline class and add utility back to MM by tying chimera shot to the stings. eg, casting chimera shot on a target suffering serpent stings causes cleave damage + spreads serpent sting, casting on wyvern recovers focus, casting on x causes stun, etc. Moving MM to a immovable sniper has handicapped the spec in pve and pvp. It also feels very weird that our long cast time ability hits like pillows in pvp and only really gets meaningful burst during trueshot windows.
I’d also like to see some cool interaction between camo and aimed and sniper shots. There should be a nice damage boost when opening from camo.
Camo was also pretty cool back in the day when it had a predator effect, then once still I believe you were invisible instead of chameleon like when moving. MM should get some perks with camo other specs don’t.
Aimed shot damage I also feel is lackluster compared to its cast time. I’m not a big fan of rapid fire as is, I always liked it more as a haste boost ability. I’d like to see RF back to boosting haste and pack some more punch into arcane for MM to make that shot worth using.
Also forget the name, the shot MM has with the knock back. Seems like it never works, or the other player has to be nose to nose close for it to work. Not sure if this is a me issue or if others find the ability kind of a pain to use.
I wouldn’t mind seeing lone wolf aside from the damage boost, grant some perks to each ability. Maybe increase range on all shots slightly, could reduce cooldown on turtle possibly, and or traps.
I liked MM from Vanilla to Mists. Stopped playing at WOD and Leguon, then came back for BFA. Hard to say much about MM in the two expansions I missed, but its nowhere near as fun or viable these days, especially in PVE where its for me one of the least fun specs in the game.
These are two fundamentally different abilities. And tuning can never make it balanced. A instant generator vs a channeled one.
Even with proper tuning, the decision would always be chimera unless it was significantly under-tuned.
Rapid Fire isn’t part of MM identity, it’s a brand new BFA spell. It is insanely clunky. No other class has a channeled CD other than WW, which is a hard hitting spender. And with turbo fists in PvP it’s also a 90% slow.
None of the RF talents are redeeming or good, RF doesn’t feel good from a play style perspective, it also has a horrid animation. If it goes to being a hard hitting spender then we have 3 spenders and 1 generator. That also feels bad.
Bringing in Chimera, with no focus cost and some interesting utility baked into it means we actually use steady shot and have a fun rotation.
I’m in agreement with you. I want Rapid Fire removed. It doesn’t make sense for the spec. I don’t like it, I don’t like channeled abilities in general, and it has other issues, like somebody getting a lucky crit on the target you are using to set up the ricochets, killing it early, tanking your AoE DPS, and robbing you of Focus generation and In The Rhythm procs.
I don’t like Rapid Fire and would prefer to never have to use it.
When I posted that feedback on this forum, I got pushback from a few people who like Rapid Fire and find it fun. In trying to respect their opinions and not gut the fun from the spec for others just to make myself happy, I am proposing a half measure solution where Rapid Fire still exists and Chimaera Shot is available to replace it for whoever wants to do so.
I don’t understand why you are arguing against this with me.
Go convince the people who like Rapid Fire that they are wrong if you want it removed. I personally am sick of Hunter reworks alienating existing players, we have had that for at least 2 specs every expansion every expansion since MoP. A talent to replace Rapid Fire with Chimaera Shot gives me the gameplay I am after and doesn’t remove gameplay that other people like.
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Sorry I don’t frequent the hunter forums as much as I used too, so I didn’t know your previous stance on RF.
The sad part is your can’t argue with players that all they know is this iteration of hunter. You’d need to hand them Wrath, cata or MoP hunter to show the what they are missing. Classic hunter has a lot of nice abilities, but it’s a relatively clunky design.
The best we can do is speak up loud enough to get blizzard to bring back older designs of hunter. Something about the squeaky wheels gets the grease.
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I understand where you’re coming from — Rapid Fire as it exists currently is a rather awkward spell introduced relatively recently in WoW’s lifespan.
Thinking further on it, I suppose part of my reaction is that I was worried Blizzard would take this the wrong way and entirely prune Rapid Fire without attempting to change it (really, if we get both the original version of Rapid Fire and Trueshot Aura back, I’d be happy).
Ultimately, I guess the three prunes we’ve had since WoD has made me somehow gun-shy when people are talking about not liking a specific ability and ask for it to be either “removed” (ugh) or “replaced” (I don’t love this either. I’m greedy — I want a 20-button rotation instead of a 4-button rotation 
).
You’re right about the spell currently (a channel focus builder) being a poor fit for MM. But I think Blizzard could change it to make it fun for us; a focus spender (really, we did fine with Steady Shot as our only focus builder in Cata, MoP, and WoD) with maybe a boost/proc at the end for another shots, or put a bleed on the target. Or whatever. Just get creative without removing, Blizzard!
Ok, that’s fair. It does worry me a bit, though, that they dropped it in on MM with the same coefficient (and not even the focus generation) that BM has. It also worries me a bit that it still appears to be the strongest talent on that tier even at current tuning, which is going to make it extremely difficult to buff it to where it really should be.
I also find it a bit insulting that in an expansion where one of the headline features is “unpruning”, they are taking what used to be a baseline ability and adding it back as a talent. You know, the defining feature of the pruning itself.
I mean, I get it, though if we got back Aimed-on-the-move (something I’ve generally said isn’t really needed, given that it’s already only ~21% of our rotational time outside of Trueshot, but I get why peeps want it), and/or if they reduced Aimed Shot back down to its 2.0s cast time it had in prior expansions, I think that would be less relevant.
I’m also a bit shocked at someone who’s clearly played hunter for much of the game’s lifespan advocating a build that removes an ability hunters have had literally since the game launched. Aimed Shot has been a defining feature of MM for the entire decade-and-a-half-plus history of this game.
Personally, I really do wish they’d just bring back WoD MM. Heck, I’d even be happier with late-Legion MM over the current iteration. At least felt more engaging…
I really want to see WoD-era Lone Wolf back, where you had the selection of 8 raid buffs to provide with it. Granted, that would also involve bringing back WoD’s raid buff system, but I’d also love to see that back as well. The current raid buff system of 5 classes having unique raid buffs, 3 of which have inferior scroll replacements and 2 have no replacement, and the other 7 classes just having zilch, it frankly garbage.
Damn, you missed the absolute peak of MM, imo. WoD MM was exemplary, especially with the HFC 4-set bonus that made Aimed Shot instacast.
Well, Eye Beam. Also, Rapid Fire isn’t exactly a low-damage shot. It hits harder than Aimed Shot over the channel. It also hits substantially harder than Eye Beam, though it’s still well behind Fists of Fury.
Still, I agree. Rapid Fire is, imo, garbage. It isn’t fun from a gameplay perspective, it has no history with the class, and it makes zero thematic sense. Why would a spec themed around slow well-aimed shots and being a sniper have a spray-and-pray ability?
Honestly, if they don’t want CS returning as a signature shot, due to issues with the cleave and lack of stings to interact with baseline, then give us Windburst instead (except instacast this time). That’s plenty thematic, even without Thas’dorah in our hands, it has some minor bonus utility, and it similarly fills the rotational niche of a high-damage short/mid CD nuke. Piercing Shot would be another option that fills a similar role.
RF just doesn’t belong, and it really needs to go.
I 100% agree with op it is literally night and day between the 2 specs MM needs fair number changes to even be able too compete with the mongo stat stacking BM spec.
I’m also a bit shocked at someone who’s clearly played hunter for much of the game’s lifespan advocating a build that removes an ability hunters have had literally since the game launched. Aimed Shot has been a defining feature of MM for the entire decade-and-a-half-plus history of this game.
Perhaps I misworded that. I don’t want aimed shot removed, I want chimera to be the bread and butter of our damage. With the idea in mind that chimera would have its previous utility restored so that they can fix other MM problems like mobility and cleave. I think aimed shot would feel better as our secondary priority operating off procs , talents, or openers such as previous camo mechanics, lock n load, or even a greater pyro type mechanic. This way our class isnt rooted into a hardcast so often. In this fantasy world of mine, RF is also removed and we get our stings back, which i would argue is one of the most iconic hunter abilities being one of the first spells you ever get. That’s just how I personally would prefer to play MM.
I would agree that aimed shot is a more iconic mm ability, but wotlk chimera was a more fun button for me than aimed shot ever was. So i think there could be a really interesting ground there between the two, as there was in the past.
Also, a second problem I have with aimed shot is not only that it is a hard cast, but that 3 out of 4 abilities have cast bars (including RF in this). It’s just a lot.
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Ya, but cast bars aren’t really that big of a deal if you can move during them. We always have Arcane for instant tagging, so no big deal on that front. Steady’s cast time is barely longer than the GCD to start with (and I would love to see it reduced back down to 1.5s cast). Rapid Fire needs to die anyway. Aimed having a cast time isn’t really a big issue, in my mind. It fits the concept of the ability.
I agree, SS and rapid fire cast bars arent a big deal which is why I didnt bring them up originally. Thats just a secondary gripe I have. Why even have the cast/channel bar in those two abilities? The cast bars only affect the feel of it, not necessarily the gameplay. IMO it makes the spec feel slower than it often is.
I also like the previous suggestion to have chimera replace RF’s role. Something to make the spec feel more fluent
Just in case it wasn’t stated(rapid fire) used to be our dps cool down though. Giving us 40 percent haste for 12… I think 12… seconds. Not a machine gun shot that built focus.
And chimera needs to be like…6 second cd. Needs the heal added back to it as well(to help mm survivability).
It’s not a you thing. Bursting shot has to be used point blank to have the knock back effect. Also the fact that it’s a narrow cone makes it extremely easy for a melee to dodge even unintentionally as they try to move behind you.
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