Yeah, KC is 100% rotational for the spec. No matter what form of content you are in.
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you were truly playing very, very wrong lol
I am not surprised at all someone with a fundamental misunderstanding of how to play the spec can also not understand a hero talent tree
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Because not settling for it would, to be logically consistent, require not settling for basically any of the Hero Talents weâve seen so far.
Itâs largely dull, but⌠they virtually all are, and at least this Pack Leader isnât as likely to be gameplay*-degrading* as the majority are.
Simple as that.
For my part, I do think Pack Leader could be better, but no complaint I can apply to it wouldnât also apply to the other Hero Talents, while there are a few complaints deserved of the others that at least do not apply to Pack Leader.
He said âI donât know Survival so I am not going to talk about it.â He doesnât know Survival.
You also appear not to.
Yes, numbers can be tuned, so what we should be looking at right now is mechanically how do these new talents interface with Survivalâs kit and overall feedback loop/playstyle. As has been stated a few times in this thread by a few experience Survival players, KC resets might be a dull mechanic but they interface with how the spec works in a beneficial way. You saying that you gave serious consideration to unbinding it suggests you donât know how the spec works mechanically.
No one is settling for anything. I think what you will find if you read the informed feedback of many experienced Survival players is most of us are pleased with the first draft of this tree in how it fits into the mechanics of this spec. It has hooks that improve what the spec does well and increase the effectiveness of the feedback loops that drive it.
You can say you are unhappy with Pack Leader because you wish it were flashier, but saying it is a bad tree because who cares about Kill Command only means you arenât fully understanding its clear benefits.
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I main survival on my hunter thia tree works mechanically and is good its just kinda. Boring to me thematacally it could bee funner.
I even if we ignore the theme completely and look at bonuses of sv vs bm, it still doesnât change the fact that bm gets more bang for buck out of this than sv
feel like you donât understand sv at all if youâre saying this
how? if youâre going to make such a big claim surely you can back it up
Vicious Hunt: Kill Command prepares you to viciously attack in coordination with your pet, dealing additional physical damage with your next Kill Command .
BM casts a bit more than twice Kill Commands than SV. Obviously BM will benefit twice more from this
Pack Coordination: Attacking with Vicious Hunt instructs your pet to strike with their basic attack alongside your next Barbed Shot (Beast Mastery), Raptor Strike, or Mongoose Bite (Survival).
SV casts ~55% more mongoose bites than BM casts barbed shots while BM pets easily do twice the damage in single basic attack
BM still comes out on top
Howl of the Pack Your petâs Basic Attack critical strikes increase your critical strike damage by 5% for 6 seconds, stacking up to 3 times.
Hard to guess on this one since it will make Crit more valuable for sv than it is now.
Wild Attacks: Every third pet Basic Attack is a guaranteed critical strike, with damage further increased by critical strike chance.
BM pet hits harder than that of SV.
Frenzied Tear: Your petâs Basic Attack has a 20% chance to reset the cooldown of Kill Command and cause Kill Command to strike a second time for 30% of normal damage.
BM KC hits like a truck, SV KC hits like a wet noodle.
Covering Fire: Kill Command increases the duration of Beast Cleave by 1 second (Beast Mastery). Wildfire Bomb reduces the cooldown of Carve or Butchery by 2 seconds (Survival).
Hard to tell on this one tbh.
Cull the Herd: Kill Shot deals an additional 30% damage over 5 seconds and increases the bleed damage you and your pet deal to the target by 25%.
BM main bleed is barbed shot, SV bleed is from blue balls and bloodseeker whose combined damage over the fights does not come close to barbed shot. Maybe the bleed from Coordinated Assaults Kill shot bleeds will make up the difference, but highly unlikely.
Furious Assault: Consuming Frenzied Tear has a 50% chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot and deal 30% additional damage. (Beast Mastery) Consuming Frenzied Tear has a 50% chance to make your next Raptor Strike or Mongoose Bite free and deal 30% additional damage. (Survival)
ATM barbed on fits is about 15% less damage over the course of a boss fight, for once, the SV has the edge.
Oh wait⌠Procs can happen on very low stacks of MB windows too which actually lowers the valueâŚ
Beast of Opportunity Bestial Wrath (Beast Mastery) or Coordinated Assault (Survival) calls on the Pack, summon a pet from your stable for 6 seconds.
Do I even need to comment on this? BW 1.5 min cd, CA 2min cd, BW has a cd lowering mechanic, CA does not.
Can you back up your claim though?
yes?
pack leader has synergies with nearly every single ability and cooldown in survivalâs kit. itâs far more exciting think about gameplay considerations with pack leader as SV than BM.
this does not lower the value as a proc on low stack MF gets you to higher stack MF for free.
choice node with furious assault, realistically SV is not picking this with how strong a free MB is
you have no idea what survivalâs kit is lol. not only does SV already deal way more damage than BM with kill shot (ranger talent) you even mentioned in this post that SV has an extra bleed on CA.
SV KC enables tip of the spear, deadly duo extensions, deadly duo damage, and generates focus. to think of the two as both damage dealing abilities is a bit ridiculous
crit is already tied for our best stat
extra basic attacks = extra coordinated assault empowerments
extra basic attacks = extra free mongoose biates
extra basic attacks = extra KC resets = extra fote cdr, extra wfb cdr, extra quick shot damage, extra focus
this damage is not tied to KC damage and based on the fact diabolist is also being tuned per spec itâs safe to assume this will be as well
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Thanks also to Dratnos for his new video review of Pack leader:
#https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO04G45H0Rk
and especially the ending of âI can see why so many hunters are underwhelmed by that treeâ 
Letâs keep it going!
this video is so funny. the comments really highlight my feelings on it.
âI honestly canât think of a good way to combine the two specs in a cool way. I also think itâs hard to make something like that because one is a ranged spec and one is a melee spec and not a single other hero talent tree has to accomplish thatâ
I guess shaman donât exist anymore 
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non hunter players with no clue about how it actually works xD
Having to be an expert to see why itâs good says it all 
You think the average Joe hunter player knows all the intricacies of survival and will appreciate the tree?
While you take pride in being one of the 5 people who know all the interactions and stuff, 99% of the playerbase will ask themselves the question: is this tree fun or not, and the resounding answer will be âno, thatâs boring as hellâ
I hope they scrap it and come up with something more players can stand behind
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within a week you went from âthis is too simple and boringâ to âthis is too complicatedâ. nothing on the tree changed. how did your criticism pivot into the complete opposite direction
why should a tree made for sv/bm take input from 99% of players that dont play hunter? should they listen to me about mage trees? no because thatâs ridiculous lol
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Yeah says that the average player is clueless and that they donât know what they are talking about when they read a talent tree.
No which is why they should wait till they actually see it in action since they canât grasp it just by reading the tree and need to see it to understand
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Extremely situational and in need of right-sizing
Why implement it at all when they seem very
watered down compared to the background of
what we already have?
Vicious Hunt is unnecessary and is clutter.
Pack Coordination; why is there even a discussion
about 'who comes out on top"? Donât try to cram
stuff into a spec b/c âitâs coolâ
The rest are ok and useful but in the face of âJust
Empower What You Gave Us Alreadyâ reduce the
clutter and you can think about other combat points
instead of timing on other things.
Put weapon slots on Hunter Weapons (3) to make
available 3 talents of choice from a menu similar to
the PvP talents on War Mode menu. This suddenly
removes clutter and these three can be swapped out
quickly from AoE type talents to Single Target (example)
Personally, I prefer to see this being handled by
a hybrid move that allows Bestial Wrath to be
implemented for SV along with a 2nd pet (not
exotic) that spawns for the duration of BW.
BM would be better served by a dual-wield
spec rather than more clutter and more things
to think about during combat. A true BM spec
(hybrid) could use Explosive Shot and Barbed
Shot at 7 yards out but nothing ranged outside
of pets/crows - throw in Flanking Strike or CA
to jump into melee. Put more into the petsâŚ
âBurning Chainsâ Š a melee fire damage that
DoTs and holds the opponent in melee range
would do nicely b/c you have both pets AND the
Hunter attacking at same time close in. DW BM
would be a radical departure from the Squishy
Hunter but Weapon Slots answer a lot in the
âQuest for Fireâ as far as Hunters.
Also the whole quest for usefulness for Hunters
is answered easily/quickly by allowing 35% of
ALL their damage to be healing the raid/group.
Damage still counts it just also heals.
That was a beautiful poem.
Itâs sad that we boiled down to opinion of a single person. Dude has bad rating regardless. His opinion is worth trash