Marksmanship is way more fun than I thought it would be

[Drain-windseeker]

@Espur-whitemane

As was discussed earlier, you’ll virtually never drop TSA unless your raid has an excess of Hunters and you’re able to drop TSA without losing the buff.

My guild raids which ran with only 2 hunters, never put us in the melee groups. Since survival outshoots marks after T1, there was no reason for us to even have trueshot. But the other guy kept it anyway; he liked his marks build. He figured having the aura for me (only other person actually using it) was good enough.

[Frogears-atiesh]

@Espur-whitemane

It’s the same with cat vs. wolf. Cat is highest personal DPS, but the raid DPS you get from wolf usually outweighs cat DPS.

This is really helpful information/perspective. I wouldn’t say I’m planning to raid pretty much ever, but I might fill in once in a while. Still good info. for 5 mans which I probably will do. Good timing as just today I was looking at cat vs. wolf. Now that I have my lvl 40 mount I’m likely to be buying the second stable slot quite soon and will be better able to juggle more than one pet while leveling.

[Skribby-fairbanks]

@Communism-netherwind

It’s so strange it’s like everyone forgot druids can tank and not just heal lmao, I might as well bear tank is fun

It didn’t help that before launch every website, everywhere, was saying Druids will only be healing in raids, with very little off tanking done by them.

[Espur-whitemane]

@Drain-windseeker

My guild raids which ran with only 2 hunters, never put us in the melee groups. Since survival outshoots marks after T1, there was no reason for us to even have trueshot. But the other guy kept it anyway; he liked his marks build. He figured having the aura for me (only other person actually using it) was good enough.

What is your proof that LR outperforms TSA after T1? Losing the 100 AP on yourself is bad, losing 400 AP on the melee is worse. If your raid doesn’t put you and the other Hunter into melee groups to provide TSA and wolf Howl your guild is bad. Flat out.

@Frogears-atiesh

This is really helpful information/perspective. I wouldn’t say I’m planning to raid pretty much ever, but I might fill in once in a while. Still good info. for 5 mans which I probably will do. Good timing as just today I was looking at cat vs. wolf. Now that I have my lvl 40 mount I’m likely to be buying the second stable slot quite soon and will be better able to juggle more than one pet while leveling.

Wolf is definitely a raid pet, Cat is better for world, PvP, and dungeons.

[Maledictus-kurinnaxx]

@Espur-whitemane

@Watchout-thalnos

Yeah with like full naxx gear lol.

No, I’m pretty sure the required Agility to make LR better (again, with an MM Hunter providing TSA) is lower than that. Without that TSA, it definitely requires Naxx level gear and then you’re still missing 400 AP from not providing TSA to the melee group.

It’s an extremely selfish build that isn’t likely to be a thing, especially when Hunters are even less popular in AQ/Naxx when the people who don’t know enough realize how bad Hunters get.

Rag was downed with level 55’s and two of the three tanks were DPS spec’d.

People grossly over estimate the level of optimization you need to succeed in Classic.

Edit:

Forgot to mention the Druid who posted a video in gen forum tanking rag on his first kill. FunFact: He didn’t have Naxx Gear. See original point above.

[Drain-windseeker]

The higher DPS was the proof. Not only did we see it regularly, but it was common knowledge all over the realm/forum. I could explain why/how, but I will not waste anymore of my time. Btw, windfury is much better than trueshot/howl (but carry on trying to say we’re “flat out” bad). Also btw, wind snakes actually outdamage cats vs any enemy with high armor, because the shock is magic damage. This is a big deal when 3/4 alliance teams are warrior/paladin. You seem to make a habit out of spreading bad information, but at least you’re somewhat on topic this time, I guess.

We really need a class forum section… which the Europe forum actually has.

[Frogears-atiesh]

Wind snakes are really interesting this time around.

Yes, a change was made and they don’t function exactly the same as before in their stats. I’ve been running with one for ~20 levels because he stole my heart the day I went out searching for a particular cat to tame.

Part of why I’m looking at cats and other types of beasts right now is because I want to spent some time comparing and contrasting them. Also one nice thing about leveling with a wind snake is their lightning breath has far fewer ranks so you don’t have to take time out to upgrade it as often.

[Redwolf-arugal]

I swapped to surv at 52… once i was able to get scatter and counter attack… love it… better for pvp

[Espur-whitemane]

@Drain-windseeker

The higher DPS was the proof. Not only did we see it regularly, but it was common knowledge all over the realm/forum. I could explain why/how, but I will not waste anymore of my time. Btw, windfury is much better than trueshot/howl (but carry on trying to say we’re “flat out” bad). Also btw, wind snakes actually outdamage cats vs any enemy with high armor, because the shock is magic damage. This is a big deal when 3/4 alliance teams are warrior/paladin. You seem to make a habit out of spreading bad information, but at least you’re somewhat on topic this time, I guess.

We really need a class forum section… which the Europe forum actually has.

Are you talking about vanilla or Classic? In vanilla the testing and the research wasn’t thorough. In Classic, it’s very much well known and tested that TSA is going to remain the best for Hunters until they have AQ~Naxx gear and there’s another source of TSA in the party. If your melee group does not have TSA, the overall DPS loss is far and away not filled by the increased DPS you do as LR - and even then, not having TSA is a huge hit for Hunters too. Windfury is also amazing but is RNG, and there’s nothing stopping the melee groups from having both.

Wind Serpent is good at range for bosses you can’t have high melee uptime on, and with ZG gets a new rank of breath. But personal DPS is highest with cat on a traditional tank and spank. And again - personal DPS is irrelevant, especially since your DPS will quickly stop being close to Rogue/Warrior and buffing them is more important than buffing yourself.

Not sure what relevance there is for “Alliance teams” when this is a PvE discussion.

[Drain-windseeker]

I didn’t even own a cat. Didn’t see a reason to. I had my wind snake for soloing/BG, and my wolf for groups. In raids btw, you don’t even use a pet except for pulling because they just die. The small amount of DPS they’ll add before dying is quite irrelevant. You COULD, in THEORY, keep the wolf standing near you (hopefully out of danger), and just howl regularly for your shooting, but I only bothered with this a handful of times. Again, it’s such a small boost to DPS, you’ll soon wonder, “why bother?”

Unrelated Protip: Vanilla/Classic = same thing.

[Espur-whitemane]

@Drain-windseeker

I didn’t even own a cat. Didn’t see a reason to. I had my wind snake for soloing/BG, and my wolf for groups. In raids btw, you don’t even use a pet except for pulling because they just die. The small amount of DPS they’ll add before dying is quite irrelevant. You COULD, in THEORY, keep the wolf standing near you (hopefully out of danger), and just howl regularly for your shooting, but I only bothered with this a handful of time. Again, it’s such a small boost to DPS, you’ll soon wonder, “why bother”.

Unrelated Protip: Vanilla/Classic = same thing.

Wind Serpent is useful in PvP so it’s not endlessly kited, but is not as good against casters. Also just because you are bad at pet micro doesn’t mean pets aren’t useful in raids, you can pretty easily keep it alive with game knowledge. Small DPS isn’t actually so small at this point in the game. By AQ40/Naxx it’ll be small, but it’s still a noticeable DPS increase - especially Howl in a melee group.

I’ve had my wolf out and on the boss on nearly every single boss in MC. The only one you actually can’t is obviously Shazzrah. The others can have the pet on it, especially with 3pc t1. Arguing a, “small increase” doesn’t mean it’s not an increase - especially if you’re the provider of TSA and Howl for your melee group.

Patch changes in vanilla had things change, and with people min/maxing properly in Classic rather than in vanilla (we have world first kills where people played really badly) you not bothering to do it right is much more noticeable. That includes being LR this early (and causing melee to lose out on TSA) and not bothering to micro your pet.

More evidence that your raid wasn’t very good was not having both Hunters be TSA and providing it for melee groups. Windfury is great, +100 AP and Howl is also great.

[Goldbot-thunderfury]

@Espur-whitemane

@Drain-windseeker

I didn’t even own a cat. Didn’t see a reason to. I had my wind snake for soloing/BG, and my wolf for groups. In raids btw, you don’t even use a pet except for pulling because they just die. The small amount of DPS they’ll add before dying is quite irrelevant. You COULD, in THEORY, keep the wolf standing near you (hopefully out of danger), and just howl regularly for your shooting, but I only bothered with this a handful of time. Again, it’s such a small boost to DPS, you’ll soon wonder, “why bother”.

Unrelated Protip: Vanilla/Classic = same thing.

Wind Serpent is useful in PvP so it’s not endlessly kited, but is not as good against casters. Also just because you are bad at pet micro doesn’t mean pets aren’t useful in raids, you can pretty easily keep it alive with game knowledge. Small DPS isn’t actually so small at this point in the game. By AQ40/Naxx it’ll be small, but it’s still a noticeable DPS increase - especially Howl in a melee group.

I’ve had my wolf out and on the boss on nearly every single boss in MC. The only one you actually can’t is obviously Shazzrah. The others can have the pet on it, especially with 3pc t1. Arguing a, “small increase” doesn’t mean it’s not an increase - especially if you’re the provider of TSA and Howl for your melee group.

Patch changes in vanilla had things change, and with people min/maxing properly in Classic rather than in vanilla (we have world first kills where people played really badly) you not bothering to do it right is much more noticeable. That includes being LR this early (and causing melee to lose out on TSA) and not bothering to micro your pet.

More evidence that your raid wasn’t very good was not having both Hunters be TSA and providing it for melee groups. Windfury is great, +100 AP and Howl is also great.

Wind serpent in pvp?? What in the actual?

Casual pvp okay…

Premades no. This isn’t some goofy private server.

You have 3 jobs in bgs as a classic hunter.

1. Viper sting blue bars
2. BT pushes casters poop in
3. Baby sit healers with kiting/ traps ect…

You can do these things effectively with a well built and well coordinated team.

Casual pvp? Yea you could sit a wolf beside you and howl all you want and just aim shot/multi clothies all day while the flag passes you by for the 3rd time. Wind serpent, really? I would use a wolf for buffing aimed/multi before i brought a wind serpent.

[Drain-windseeker]

1. You don’t need max attack speed. You don’t need a cat, at all. There’s a thing called PRE FER ENCE, meaning you can use what you want, and I’ll use what I want.
2. I suggested the idle wolf buffing for raiding so the pet wouldn’t die, not BGs. I pretty much never took my wolf into BGs. That’s what I had the snake for. Maybe pay more attention to what you quote, or don’t quote so much text at once.

[Espur-whitemane]

The primary use of a pet is to prevent casters from getting a cast off easily. The wolf is also wasted on the many fights you can easily keep the pet alive and hitting the boss, and providing the melee group with Howl.

[Goldbot-thunderfury]

@Drain-windseeker

1. You don’t need max attack speed. You don’t need a cat, at all. There’s a thing called PRE FER ENCE, meaning you can use what you want, and I’ll use what I want.
2. I suggested the idle wolf buffing for raiding so the pet wouldn’t die, not BGs. I pretty much never took my wolf into BGs. That’s what I had the snake for. Maybe pay more attention to what you quote, or don’t quote so much text at once.

Yea, you can run bgs butt naked to. But you’re not getting into any of the elite rank farming premades with that garbage pvp attitude.

There is nothing wrong with being casual man but don’t act like what you’re saying is the optimal way to bg as a hunter because its the way YOU like to play.

[Drain-windseeker]

I could care less about the “elite rank farming premades”. I do BGs when I want, how I want. I said you don’t need a cat, and that’s true.

“There is nothing wrong with being casual man but don’t act like what you’re saying is the optimal way to bg as a hunter because its the way YOU like to play.”
Which is exactly how you (and that other dumb elitist) are acting, not how I’ve acted. You’re directing this to the wrong guy.

[Goldbot-thunderfury]

@Drain-windseeker

I could care less about the “elite rank farming premades”. I do BGs when I want, how I want. I said you don’t need a cat, and that’s true.

“There is nothing wrong with being casual man but don’t act like what you’re saying is the optimal way to bg as a hunter because its the way YOU like to play.”
Which is exactly how you (and that other dumb elitist) are acting, not how I’ve acted. You’re directing this to the wrong guy. I said what I used, and why I used it. If you don’t want to do that, then don’t. I don’t care what you do.

Again what you said IS FINE for a casual and I said being a casual is completely fine. Learn to read maybe?

But if you wanna play with the big boys then you bring your A game and fill your role correctly. A wind serpent is not going to cut it. A wolf maybe depending on your comp setup. Broken tooth is sought out heavily for a reason. There are literally discoord dedicated to helping hunters track timers on him.

Again if you wanna roll a serpent/pig/ whatever casually that is perfectly fine but don’t get offended because you can’t do that in a good premade.

[Anaroka-mankrik]

I mean… its true. So. If you use a druid MT all the time life gets a lot harder.