Let’s just skip through all the “no u” stalling one-liners.
If you can’t show where my lack of experience with MSV actually leads to me being wrong about MSV than this is a dead-end argument that you are clearly pushing just to stall.
It literally does. I’ve written extensively as to why making melee SV is a bad idea. You claimed that I never do that.
Let’s try to recap here:
Ranged SV could not be improved in ways that would have fixed the issues you described, and if it could it would be a totally different specs, but the changes slated for the spec that literally address those things are not big enough changes to say that the spec wasn’t stagnant. Got it.
Uh, no, a charge-based Lock and Load system is not similar to either of those things beyond the fact that it’s on-demand burst. It’s actually a pretty unique mechanic that no Hunter spec has seen before.
It wasn’t meant to because SV was already in a good state. The changes that would change SV much didn’t make it to live because they undoubtedly already decided the spec was going melee, something Celestalon was evidently pushing for the moment he was unfortunately promoted.
RSV already had plenty of mobility and no issue getting out of ground effects. We had Disengage for that. Plus, Harpoon would put us in melee range; somewhere you generally don’t want ranged to be. And that’s just the PvE perspective. It would be even worse in PvP, actively putting SV in the melee range it wants to avoid at all costs.
Both. They both addressed issues with SV and expanded it in meaningful ways, and there was plenty more room for expansion beyond WoD. Just because they aren’t remaking specs every expansion doesn’t mean they are stagnating. Like I said in my last post, that is a dreadful attitude that leads to bad class design and it’s something they are actively trying to move away from.
No, I’m dismissing it as nonsense because we had other more standardised ways of getting LnL procs and the trap mechanic in particular didn’t even exist in WoD.
You need to stop depending on empty authority arguments. I wouldn’t say you were doing it if you didn’t actually do it.
“Can be wrong” does not equate to “wrong”.
Uh, no, it doesn’t because, again, traps forcing LnL was removed in WoD. On the beta Black Arrow procced LnL a lot more regularly so you would have a reliable source of LnL charges to spend as you needed them. That’s a major change to the way the spec operates.
It didn’t if you think that any iteration that had Explosive Shot at all was just “shuffling things around” but we have already established that’s a ridiculous standard.
They can improve the “obvious mistakes” such as our talent choices being pitiful, but the core mechanics you described work very well and therefore do not need to be replaced. You’re consistently failing to understand that the subjects of remaking and replacing should be the things that don’t work, not the things that are fine.
Like I said, you aren’t just pushing for mistakes to be fixed. You are pushing for them to fix what isn’t broken.
Same fallacy as the above 2 parts. Preserving mechanics that work extremely well is a good thing and is not the same as not fixing things that are working badly. No one is against fixing mistakes. What people are against is haphazard pruning and replacing of things that not only work but constitute the parts people actually like about the spec, game, or whatever.
Neither of those things are actually what’s being defended here.
It was a mistake to leave Counter Attack costing mana, but it was a useless, disliked talent that shouldn’t have existed in the first place. SV Hunters just ignored it and it didn’t have any negative effect on the spec just by existing as a broken talent. Trying to derive any sort of grand point from this has always been absurd.
AotH removal did not cause us to do less damage than healers, and even if it did this would just be a tuning issue related to something being pruned that is utterly irrelevant to the point at hand.
Uh, people liked Hunters in Cata, MoP, and WoD a lot and actually point to that period, especially MoP, as the class’s peak. Legion was widely seen to be a huge downgrade for the class. It’s absolutely wild that you’re here trying to pretend that it was the reverse, but you’re welcome to go and ask many Hunters what their favourite expansion for Hunter class design was. Hint: MoP is the most popular answer.
This, again?
Neither of those things address what you are actually pushing here. You think that it’s a good thing that RSV got thrown out purely because it had abilities like Explosive Shot and Black Arrow for 4 expansions (on account of being things that worked and people liked). You also evidently think BM should be significantly changed… just because.
Stop trying to deflect to random design oversights like Counter Attack. If we are going to go in that direction, I can just point out that BM right now has Spitting Cobra which still doesn’t work beyond 20 yards because Blizzard forgot to up its range when they moved it from SV to BM. I’d actually argue that there are more and worse oversights like this post Legion rather than before Legion. Nevertheless, it’s not relevant to the problem at hand. Why should Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrowe be removed and why should Survival be made melee, based on this point? How does doing those things address issues like Counter Attack? It’s nonsense. You’re trying to connect unrelated things to back up a bad argument.
Aaand this is exactly why your view of class design is toxic; you think iterative design is equivalent to stagnation. There’s nothing much to really say about that: it’s just an outlandish, ridiculous stance to take not just on class design but in game development as a whole. You are proudly embracing the “change for the sake of change” anti-pattern that makes games worse because they can never explore working, fun mechanics and develop on a concept over time as they must always replace them.
Well here is one example from the time I keep saved to remind me of this:
https://imgur.com/a/Irp5Pve
It was absolutely a thing. To be fair, any criticism of Legion or Hazzikostas at the time was social suicide. I took 60 downvotes on Reddit around then for saying that Hazzikostas was dishonest, something I’d probably get 60 upvotes for saying today. But there was strong pressure against criticism of melee Survival at the time which lasted until it came out and it was apparent that it wasn’t as strong an idea that those people thought, although there is still pressure to this day.
Yes you did misunderstand; I was referring to the fact that at one point the ticks of Explosive Trap, which would be ticking on multiple targets at once, could trigger Lock and Load and therefore this is at least remotely comparable to Black Arrow multidotting for more LnL procs.