Mages (Frost, Fire, Arcane) Are Falling Behind in Mythic+

Classes Mage
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Since the release of Midnight and especially after Patch 12.0.5, it’s becoming harder to ignore the overall state of Mages in Mythic+. This isn’t just a Frost problem anymore — all three specs (Frost, Fire, and Arcane) are underperforming compared to the current meta.

Looking at data from Icy Veins and recent Mythic+ performance breakdowns, Mages are no longer showing up in top-performing comps, and their representation has noticeably dropped. Frost, which many expected to be a strong and reliable pick going into Midnight, has fallen in popularity and isn’t appearing in high-end group compositions. Fire and Arcane aren’t picking up the slack either — they’re struggling just as much to justify a spot.

The Core Problem: No Clear Strength
Right now, Mage specs feel like they’re “okay” at everything but not actually good at anything that matters in Mythic+:

  • AoE damage isn’t competitive with top specs

  • Burst windows don’t match the pace of large pulls

  • Single-target is fine, but not enough to carry value

  • Utility, while still solid, is no longer unique

Other classes bring similar utility but also outperform Mages in damage, survivability, or both. That makes it harder and harder to justify bringing a Mage to higher keys.

Survivability Feels Punishing
All three specs suffer from the same issue: they’re too fragile for modern dungeon design. High Mythic+ requires constant movement, heavy damage intake, and frequent defensive usage — and Mage defensives just don’t feel reliable enough to keep up. Mistakes are punished harder on a Mage than on most other DPS specs.

Damage Profile Doesn’t Fit the Meta
The current Mythic+ meta favors:

  • High burst AoE

  • Strong scaling in large pulls

  • Specs that can deliver damage quickly and repeatedly

Mage specs, especially Frost, lean more toward consistent damage rather than explosive output. That worked in older dungeon pacing, but it doesn’t align with how keys are being played now.

Rigid Gameplay and Limited Flexibility
Another issue is how locked-in Mage builds feel. There’s very little room to adapt to different dungeon needs or affix combinations. Compared to other classes that can shift talents to specialize in AoE, survivability, or utility, Mages feel stuck in one lane.

The Result

  • Lower representation in Mythic+

  • No presence in top meta comps

  • Increasing frustration from Mage players trying to push higher keys

At this point, it’s not about one spec needing help — it’s the entire Mage class falling behind.

What Needs to Change
Mages don’t necessarily need to be overpowered, but they do need:

  • A stronger niche (burst AoE, cleave, or control-focused identity)

  • Better survivability to handle modern dungeon damage

  • More flexibility in talents

  • Damage tuning that lets them compete with top specs

Right now, bringing a Mage feels like bringing a disadvantage, and that shouldn’t be the case for a pure DPS class.

Would love to hear if others are seeing the same trends in their keys, but from both data and experience, Mages are clearly in need of tuning.

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Trinkets are part of the damage problem this season—there were a lot of underwhelming options. I get that your post is focused on the core issues, but since you’re comparing damage across classes, trinket quality still matters as a variable.
Vaelgor’s Final Stare is mandatory for Arcane’s entire build, and it’s now also being used by the popular Devourer DH. That’s likely to stay true going forward since they’re also a Mastery/Int class. Personally, I think M+ is a better environment for trinkets like this, bonus rolls are a nice way to help this, I hope they keep it up.

I do think they handled Gaze well, though—it’s a solid trinket for everyone in a one‑boss raid.

Personally i think the survivability issues are due to cloth armor in general, overlooked for years since it was largely not relevant, until they moved in a direction of unavoidable damage. Dwarfs is being used across the leaderboard.

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I’m playing only as Arcane with as of now 2k5 m+ rating which is nice but i want to push higher.

  • AoE is quite consistent but could be higher
    (but buffing pulse would make blast unsignificant, as the damage difference is so low)
    (the burst meta and the slight ramp up of arcane gameplay aren’t a good match, it’s better in higher keys due to things not dying too fast though)
  • Single-Target doesn’t exist due to blast needing a HUGE BUFF
    Blast is 123.9% of Spell Power for 2.75% mana and 2.25s cast time
    Pulse is 91% of Spell Power for 4% mana and 2.25s cast time
    Both have “Each Arcane Charge increases damage by 60% and mana cost by 100%”
    If you do the maths for damage/sec/mana cost, the turning point is at 1.98 (so 2 targets) which isn’t the case for most specs. Even considering the mastery giving some bonus depending on the number of charges, with 40% mastery, the turning point is just above 3.
    So clearly there’s a problem here…
  • For the burst windows, surge at 1m30 and touch of magi at 45s is in line with a few other specs. This problem (at least for me) is more dependant on the tanks. Knowing how to make large packs, not doing a scenario like : pull 5-10 => stop (you start using cd or hesitate) => 2-3 mobs dies => starting to run away to pull more => etc.
    I still would buff with Surge being instant and Touch of the magi doing more damage (stack more %/bigger aoe/transfer or trigger instantly on death)

We don’t have survivability, the shield should be twice bigger to even feel useful.
I was playing with Ice cold at first but i reverted to good ol block, at least it’s saving me…

On the utility, Arcane should be the only mage spec with 2nd blink and alter time as frost and fire magic aren’t about time and space but i understand why they gave those.
Still we didn’t gain anything in return…

But overall for arcane at least, the pruning is good enough, and there’s room for rework around projectiles to give more builds, so it’s bad but mainly on numbers.

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Agreed on all points. Speaking as someone who primarily plays M+, Frost AoE currently feels underwhelming compared to other classes at a similar gear level. It’s fairly common to see specs a couple of item levels lower still pulling ahead in overall damage, largely due to stronger AoE profiles.

At the moment, we give up single-target throughput (Frigid Focus + Frozen Touch) to invest into AoE (Freezing Rain + Splintering Ray), but the resulting AoE performance still doesn’t feel competitive. Ideally, there should be a more balanced payoff here, where AoE investment leads to clearly competitive results without leaving us behind in other areas (see demo lock).

On defensives, I’ve shared some more detailed feedback in another comment, but overall my recent experience hasn’t felt particularly great.

That said, boss damage generally feels solid, and Frost seems reasonably competitive in single-target and cleave scenarios.

Overall, Frost in M+ feels lackluster because it IS lackluster, particularly in AoE situations.

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While I generally agree with what you’re saying, especially when it comes to the lack of survivability tools, it’s worth noting that pushing higher keys is an activity that has always required playing meta builds and optimizing everything down to your choice of racials. I think this season in particular has exposed the fault lines there because of the Keystone Myth achievement and the desire it created to push 16+ even among fairly casual players. At that level, where the reward is basically just bragging rights and requires “sweaty” play, frustration isn’t only to be expected but I would argue is basically baked into the game. Same as bashing your head against an over designed Mythic raid boss for hundreds of pulls.

That said, the excessive pruning and scaling down of defensive abilities in Midnight could definitely stand to be reconsidered and has turned out just as poorly as we all expected and warned about, notwithstanding the relative ease and more forgiving nature of M+ this season at lower levels and really up to the 10-12 range where the overwhelming number of keys are being run. Beyond that, when a single bleed effect ticks for 50% of your HP… only the deity of your choice can help you. :joy:

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This isn’t about wanting to be “meta” or top of the meters—it’s about being viable enough to participate in the part of the game my friends are playing.

Right now, the reality is that Mage performance in Mythic+ is lagging behind other specs in ways that directly impact group viability. Even early data from sites like Icy Veins shows Mage specs slipping in both popularity and performance—Frost, for example, has already dropped multiple spots in Mythic+ representation after 12.0.5 tuning . And when you look at tier lists and analysis, they’re evaluated not just on damage, but on utility, survivability, and how well they fit into high-key group compositions .

That matters, because high keys are where those differences stop being theoretical and start being group-defining.

People keep saying “you can still do 10–12 keys,” but that’s not really the point.
10–12 keys are not the ceiling of the game—they’re the entry point for a lot of players pushing higher content. Saying “just stay there” is basically saying:

“Accept that your class choice limits the content you’re allowed to participate in.”

That’s not a healthy design outcome.

From both community discussions (Altered Time Discord, forums) and gameplay guides, the issue isn’t that Mage is unplayable—it’s that its damage profile, survivability, and utility don’t scale as well into higher keys compared to other specs. Even Icy Veins highlights how specs are judged on things like burst profile, survivability, and group synergy—not just raw DPS . And right now, Mage struggles to compete on those axes in high-end Mythic+.

So when people say “just play what you enjoy,” I agree—but only if the game actually supports that.

Because here’s the real issue:

  • I want to play with friends who push high keys

  • I don’t want to feel like I’m holding the group back

  • I don’t want my character to hit a wall at +15 because of class tuning

That’s not entitlement—that’s wanting the game to respect player choice.

No one is asking for Mage to be S-tier.
But it should be viable enough that choosing to main it doesn’t come with a built-in ceiling.

Settling for “it’s fine in mid keys” isn’t a solution—it’s just accepting that some classes are excluded from a core part of endgame.

And that’s not okay.

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I think it’s also more nuanced than just pointing at tuning. Groups only have three DPS slots, and that alone makes the meta extremely tight. On top of that, we’ve got a brand‑new spec in the spotlight — an Int caster that simply does things better than Mage can in the current environment. The Aug/DH combo is incredibly hard to compete with, and it warps what “viable” even looks like for everyone else at scale.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m calling for buffs too. Mage needs some help

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Nah, that’s not true. Warlock is giga tanky and even priests aren’t that weak defensively. While armor does help, most damage is magical and bleeds ignore armor anyway and it’s most relevant mainly against mobs that randomly shoot players other than the tank or the rare occasion where a boss doesn’t have much magic damage.

The survivability problem with Mage is due to them removing 3 of our strong active defensives (Mass Barrier, Greater Invisibility and Mirror Image) while giving us no compensation. Yeah, Mage did have a robust defensive kit, but mostly everything was proactive and even the very few passive options were stripped as well. Some other classes that have had their defensive kit pruned got to keep their passive options while we lost a lot on both ends. It’s quite laughable that we lost Tempest Barrier (shield after Blink/Shimmer) while DHs got an almost 1:1 version of that talent in Midnight.

We should definitely get at least Mirror Image DR back, or some other form of active mitigation, but we desperately need passive options as well. It’s been said over and over again, but we’re literally the only class in the game without some form of bonus stamina in our kit, which is the strongest form of passive defensiveness (even Priest has an option for extra stamina from Fortitude in one of their hero talents on top of the on in their class tree).

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Of course it’s not but it’s the reality. There has never once been a season with the modern iteration of M+ that has allowed every spec in the game to effectively participate in it, so these ceilings you talk about are just part of the game. You’re never guaranteed that the spec you pick at the start of a season, particularly at the start of an expansion when everything is in flux, will be viable for cutting edge content. So if you do want to participate in cutting edge content you have to adapt, even if that means starting a new spec, class, or even paying to change your race. Does it suck? Yes. Is it disrespectful of the player’s time? Unquestionably! But then I would argue you’re disrespecting your own time by pushing that cutting edge content anyway if you aren’t willing to adapt to the realities on the ground and instead hoping against hope that Blizzard will step in and do the right thing. Spoiler alert: they won’t.

Idk, maybe I’ve just become jaded after more than 20 years of this game or maybe I am just too pragmatic for my own good but I’ve long since given up on trying to get Blizzard to do their job well and I’ve accepted that they just can’t. Kudos to you for trying though, I wish you luck.

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That’s the biggest problem. It’s a mechanic in the game that cannot be mitigated against in any meaningful way and quickly becomes untenable when you start pushing the game at the cutting edge.

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I mean, you might be right — it was just a thought — but this is exactly why I keep circling back to our baseline mitigation being the real problem.

I’m actually fine with defensive pruning overall. I agree that defensives should be something you use once in a while, not something you’re spamming just to survive background damage. But without any passive layers or bonus health to support that us, we just end up rotting out.

I don’t really want more buttons to push ( but i would take them) but something like you suggest in the tree or adjustments to our current ones.

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Maybe mages should get back one of Greater Invisibility’s old effects. When it was first released (at least I think it was on release), it also removed 2 damage over time effects from the caster.

It likely wouldn’t help players at a lower level play, but it’s a unique ability that’s a bit more interesting than a flat damage reduction and would help us deal with rot damage.

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This is 100% what I keep preaching. We get it but be prepared for the usual non-mage trolls to be in here saying “You just wanna be #1 cuz you can’t stand not being Blizz’s fav for a season” or some other absurdity.

Not sure I’d agree with that for arcane.

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That’s definitely what would help us the most right now, but I also think that we should get one of our old defensives back, preferably Mirror Image. Or if not, maybe we could get a new one like the Triune Ward Shadowlands legendary, but on a different button and higher cooldown like two or three minutes, but Mass Barrier was also pretty good. In fact, we now have very little group utility since they removed that.

I’d rather Greater Invisibility stay utility only. Of the ones that got pruned, I think this was the right one. I’d always be wasting one of the effects when dealing with a targeted mechanic, so I’d rather keep it for those purposes.

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It’s gotten to the point where I have begun to gear up and play my Shaman for M+ and raids. It is just becoming too taxing to try and desperately stay alive, and watching my healer throw everything they have on me specifically compared to my other teammates.

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I’d argue that that’s why it’s a good candidate to receive such a buff. Melding damage dealing effects with utility / defensive effects is dangerous, but if one ability has two distinct utility effects, it gives the player agency over which effect they need and when.

If Greater Invisibility can fix two problems, it’s now up to the player to make a decision on which problem they need to resolve. That kind of agency and expression is part of what’s missing right now.

That said, I’ll take any defensive buff right now.

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But then it’s not a utility spell anymore and turns into a defensive. I’d rather it receive the Vanish treatment of guaranteeing X seconds of invisibility even if taking damage instead of removing debuffs. Not that I wouldn’t want a self cleanse, but it should be tied to either another spell that’s already a defensive or to a new button altogether.

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I disagree. I actually read most of your post, and where my disagreement lies is here:

and

As it stands, the top 100 ranked players does contain a mage player, and they are from China, sitting at like 3980 rating or something. Not only that, but the mages following are 3700-3900 as well. You don’t get that high with a class that is only capable of doing 10-12. I am probably missing the point here, but I think you’re arguing that mage is mid compared to other classes, and I would agree, but that doesn’t stop you from pushing +20/+21 keys, because some actually do succeed in this range. If what you said is true, then mage wouldn’t be completing this high of a dungeon. Compared with priest with the highest rated player at 3920, which indicates mage is more viable.

Also, so what if it is mid? Someone has to be mid. If you ask for mages to get buffed, then mage will climb, and another class will take its place, and then that class will ask for buffs since they’re mid, and the cycle goes on and on.

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That’s the exact equivalent of telling Mythic Raiders that since RWF raiders (Liquid) can down the final boss in 200+ pulls that it is tuned just fine for the majority of players completing cutting edge.

Your logic: ‘since the top player/players can do it, it must be tuned just fine.’

I’m sorry that’s not the case in the data or in practice.

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Ok.

So you just proved the saying that skill matters over class. The top players are doing it, so that means it could be a skill issue that others aren’t doing it. It’s not like the top players have secret talents given to them by blizzard. They are using the same class as us. Just a skill difference. So skill separates the 10-12 range pushers from the +20.