Mage feels really bloated or over complicated

I see your point. They can’t just merge all of these spells into one giga spell that does everything with the touch of a single button. On the other hand, having a bloated ramp up that consists of half a dozen different damage multipliers feels terribly clunky, especially when forced movement due to mechanics can further interrupt the flow.

There is no perfect solution to this but there has to be a middle ground because neither option is tenable. For one the whole Nether Tempest/Arcane Echo could be merged into TotM because all but the sweatiest of mages already macro them together anyway and no one uses NT for any other reason but that one interaction. TotM can also go back to being a proc rather than a cooldown. This would also allow for RS to be merged with PoM to create something more interesting that could be used situationally rather than always on cooldown. I personally like Arcane Surge because I always felt that Arcane Power was incredibly uninspired but it’s undeniable that an instant cast buff is better than a lengthy cast for which you need a target. The damage component of Arcane Surge is also incredibly underwhelming for a spell with such a long cast time and cooldown. All of these things and more can be worked on to make something more modern, dynamic, and altogether better.

P.S. I didn’t mention Siphon Storm but it’s always been an absolutely terrible idea. It’s basically just a third on-use trinket slot. If there was ever something deserving of the chopping block it’s SS.

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I fully agree, but I didn’t want to be too radical all at once.

Arcane Surge is… an attempt. It’s trying to do too many things at once and not really being good at most of those things. Although I don’t like it, I do appreciate that Blizzard wanted to try something different and gave it a shot. However, you’re right, the old Arcane Power was just flat out more enjoyable.

Touch, on the other hand, I blame for most if not all of our current problems.

To this point, at least for me, all of my “suggestions” that I offer tend to be along the lines of “let’s do this and then see where we can go with it.” You’re 100% right that we can’t just remove spells from the kit without ensuring something is there to compensate. In the past our lack of spells was bolstered by our need to manage our mana (and our arcane charges) - something that I feel Blizzard could have leaned more into but from what I understand 3 buttons and a mana pool was “too difficult” for most players to understand.

I’m a strong proponent of bringing back the old “manage your mana, not your cooldowns” rotation (with actual burn and conserve phases) and trying to iterate on THAT instead of what we have now. The mana management made arcane very unique, especially once other classes had their mana dependencies stripped away. Now it constantly feels like something that Blizzard is constantly forgetting about, then suddenly remembering for a patch only to forget again.

Another controversial opinion: Rune of Power (at least a specific version of it) was better for arcane than Touch of the Magi. A 45 second recharge with 2 charges was more flexible than what touch is now. Sure, we had to plant our feet for a bit to use it, but Touch requires that whatever target we’re hitting doesn’t die before the spell ends. This effectively gimps us on fights where there are priority targets that don’t live long or if someone decides to hard CC the mob you were planning on bursting (those darned death knights…). Though I do agree that it was a wise decision to remove it from the general mage tree, I’d rather see it come back and replace TotM for arcane. Or at least make it a choice node.

The old burn / conserve let us be flexible. We essentially had 3 cooldowns: Arcane Power, Rune of Power, and Evocation. Since Evo wasn’t on the same timer and RoP was a recharge, our burst didn’t have to happen every 45 seconds like clockwork. We could hold a few seconds or go a few seconds early depending on the fight. The fact that I could call that shot myself when I needed to is what drew me to arcane in the first place.

Having to track and manage Surge, Touch, Spark, Evo, Mana Gem (and making more of them), Shifting Power, and Time Warp (when I can squeeze 2 into a fight) while also trying to watch my mana, my charges, my clearcasting, my nether precision, my arcane battery, my arcane orb, and my harmony (if talented) while ALSO trying to pay attention to fight mechanics is a lot. It’s doable, and I have been doing it for a while, but it wears me out faster. I find that I’m not playing these seasons as much as I used to because I don’t have the energy to focus on all of these things at once anymore. insert old man yells at cloud meme

If Blizzard wants people to spend more time playing (and paying), pruning / unbloating mage will probably help this little subset of players do more.

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I mean, I’m no dev, but I am a few beers in so… Ideally, I think that adding some alternative spells could work, or introduce more interesting concepts like they did for Frost with the CoC talent. For example, a proper single-target AC spender, or an aoe that uses the AM charges. That’s just for the current iteration of Arcane, which honestly needs a full rework.

If they actually gave Mages a redesign they could try so many new things, including exploring the concept of actual build-spend specs for Frost or Arcane rather than the weird hybrids they have now.

Absolutely. They took an iconic Arcane ability in Evocation, then completely borked it. Part of that is because mana is not so much a thing anymore, but still is kinda. Make up your mind - either remove mana for Arcane, or double down and make it matter.

Absolutely, but I feel that its simpler to build from a strong baseline than try to cut things out of a mess. Think of it like seasoning food - you can always add more salt to it later, but once it’s too salty you’re up a creek without a paddle.

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Personally, and it feels really good to go into burst mode, but I would like more of a predictable rotation with maybe some glowy buttons to push. Would love to fully leverage my utility while at the same time doing good damg. I don’t want to be so penalized because I have to help out while Im in my “window.”

And is it so terrible to have less bloat and simplified playstyle?
Gaming for me is an escape. Relaxing, something that I can do even during and after a few beers. Personally think we should challenge the DEVs to make more complicated World/dungeon play vs increasing the difficulty of the game by increasing class complexity.

What would we be doing instead of Radiant Spark? emm…actual dmg!

Cheers!

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Another main issue for arcane is what our procs are and how they feel. Maybe it’s the same for frost and fire, but I haven’t played either in some time so I can’t speak for them.

Getting a proc doesn’t feel good. There’s no “oh wow, I got a thing that lets me do extra damage!” moment. But instead, it feels bad when we don’t get procs because if we don’t get them it’s “great, now I’m not able to do the things that are expected of me” instead.

There needs to be a degree of randomness to every kit. If there isn’t, it gets stale and incredibly predictable. However, arcane appears to be balanced around the expectation that we will get a minimum number of procs in a given timeframe. But sometimes we don’t. If we somehow go a full 45 seconds without a proc (which is VERY unlikely, I know), not only do we lose damage, we also will probably run out of mana and be even more useless than we were while not getting procs.

Something in that vicious cycle needs to change. Procs that are expected to happen need a reliable or guaranteed way to make them happen (like how clearcasting triggers Nether Precision). If procs are supposed to be random bursts of “you get something extra!” then they need to be random and they need to feel good and exciting to acquire.

An example of how to fix this problem (though not necessarily a good way to fix it, just an example):

  • Buff the baseline, no clearcasting missiles
    • But don’t make it stronger than casting a standard Blast at 4 charges
  • Make Nether Precision a guaranteed proc when you cast missiles (regardless of whether clearcasting was involved)
  • Make Clearcasting less frequent
  • Make Arcane Battery a talent that triggers on every clearcast missiles
    • Ensure that it’s stronger to fully channel than a Nether Precision buffed 4-charge arcane blast

That example obviously doesn’t help AoE cases, but that wasn’t the goal.
The point I want to make is that a random proc (clearcating) is the centerpiece of a lot of our kit, but the frequency with which we get the proc makes it so that getting is expected and it simply feels bad when you don’t instead of feeling good when you do.

This! For the love of the Titans, I beg!

What procs? All we have is Clearcasting, lol. And just like everything else related to Arcane a single proc tries to do a ton of different things. It applies to AM, oh wait now it applies to AE too, and while we’re at it why not base the entire tier set around it too? It’s enough to make your head spin.

It actually happens more often than you’d think. I didn’t even realize just how often until this tier when stacks for the 2 and 4 set bonuses would fade because I didn’t get any CC procs to refresh them.

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It was one of the biggest issues for Arcane in Shadowlands. The goal was usually to try to spam as many clearcasting missiles into a touch window as possible, but we weren’t getting them frequently enough to have 3 banked every 45 seconds (since TotM changed and made us a 45 second cycle instead of 90) . When a spec is designed around unloading everything all at once, it hurts a lot more when we’re missing key components to that burst.

The first 2 seasons of Dragonflight really helped fix the “not enough procs” issue by buffing and fixing Nether Precision (which WAS introduced in Shadowlands but was nerfed into the ground and bugged such that you only got about 50% of what you were supposed to). This effectively extended each clearcasting proc to last for 1 cast of missiles and 2 casts of blast. So we might be getting the same number of procs, but their impact on our rotation is significantly bigger (or longer, however you want to phrase it).

The new tier set is a step backwards in how NP fixed our lack of procs. Whether or not Blizzard intended for NP to have the impact it does on our kit is something we’ll never know, but it’s clear that whoever designed the new set bonus didn’t spend a lot of time thinking about its design. Also I thought that just about everyone who plays wow has agreed that maintenance buffs don’t feel good…

Amen. /10char

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:face_vomiting:

Cant stand dev most boring spec in the game, best way to fall asleep at night is to play my dev evoker.

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99% of the content you dont need to do a perfect rotation to complete i think its as simple as that. Stop worrying about the rotation it doesnt matter unless you are doing high keys or mplus raiding which hardly anybody actually does.

Agreed. Devastation is absolutely not the gold standard. There’s nothing wrong with some specs just being complex.

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I mailed mage until this xpac. Tried and stuck with evoker. Working on my mage now. Frost is fine, but clunky. Tried arcane, it needed changes, not sure I like the changes it got. Seems like way too many buttons and overly complex. Giving fire a try now. Can’t comment yet because I’ve only been fire for an hour or two.

Arcane got changed and they got rid of rune of power, it plays amazing right now i love my retail arcane mage. With the exception of Nether tempest, i think if they removed nether tempest from the main rotation the spec would be better.

Each to there own, for people that like simple specs at least dev is there for you, frost prob should be for this as well. Blizz should have a wide array of specs with different play styles for different people.

My issue with frost mage is the bloat caused by needing pet binds because water ele is still in the game. I HATE PETS!!! Glad you like it though

Well that’s your view, I think you will find a lot of other people would disagree. For starters there are A LOT more people playing Evoker than there are playing Mage. The top performing Mage spec was represented by just over 7k players last week while the top performing Evoker spec by 17k almost 18k.

Except for all the ones that aren’t and deliver the same or even better results. A more difficult playstyle that rewards the player with more damage is one thing, however, complexity for it’s own sake is never a good thing and I am afraid that’s what we have with all the mage specs right now. It’s especially unfortunate when the complexity doesn’t stem from having to do something objectively difficult but rather from being forced to juggle a multitude of minor annoyances that exist only because the specs were never streamlined and modernized, like Evokers.

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Oh I am very much of the opinion that they did not. They just copy and pasted as much as they could from the SL systems just to see what would stick. In some cases, as with NP, we were fortunate. In others, most others, we were not.

YUP! Not even a little bit or they would have at the very least based the proc condition on generating CC rather than consuming it.

Certainly everyone I know, lol.

I get that, and I know some people enjoy the complexity. I would however argue that the majority of players, prefer their specs not to be overly complex, even when there is a reward for it. Remember that period where Feral druids were overly complex, and the players complained about it massively.

I’m not saying that there aren’t players that enjoy complexity or high difficulty (dark souls is popular for some reason), but that in an effort to appeal to a wider audience perhaps the solution is to have a middle ground. Those looking for additional complexity, might be better suited to other games because WoW has historically never had the intention of being super complex.

I’d also go so far as to state that “simple” or “complex” does not necessarily relate to the number of buttons you have to push. There are specs that on paper have very few buttons, but have a lot of nuance and a weird priority system that incorporates procs, CDR, resources, build/spend, and positioning that make it more complex.

I do however agree that Devoker is not the “gold standard”. They were good out the gate, but the more you play them the more you realise there are some glaring problems with them. Personally, I still think that the good ideas from Evokers should have been introduces as part of a Mage reword (e.g disintegration), but for whatever reason Blizzard felt the need to push a weird new spec that almost seems out of place.

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Are you really going to challenge me on representation and say mage is less popular than devoker?

Devoker in PVP,PVE,Raid,mplus is all lower than mage

This is how Frost has been feeling since at least Legion, and only exacerbated more, I think, by the inability to reach shatter cap. So procs also now feel less exciting because they don’t inherently mean more damage for any spell other than IL. One of the most demoralizing things is a banked proc failing to perform to expectations.


That being said, I agree that Mage specs have been going through “complexifying” with little thought given to their core gameplay.

From my little time with it and reading these comments, Arcane lost its pure mana management, Fire’s mostly plays around the same-ish, but became more about just how low you can get your Combustion rendering the enjoyment of it, and subsequently Hot Streak procs, moot. Then there’s Frost; and they’re seeming inability to stop adding new spells and forcing them all to fit in a singular proc without them providing anything more than just pure damage.

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Exactly. Blizzard’s response to the majority of problem areas for all 3 specs over the years has been to add more and more new spells that addressed niche problems which, while relevant at the time, either no longer exist or have become moot. But all the extra spells remained and with the DF talent tree revamp were all dumped on us without any consideration whatsoever. Not about the added bloat and certainly not about the lack of coherent and cohesive themes around each spec. What we’re left with it is a hodgepodge of half-measures and bandaids that were haphazardly generated over nearly 2 decades and that we’re forced to integrate into our rotations because we continue to be balanced around them. Nothing short of a complete overhaul can hope to fix this mess in the long term.

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The last time I played frost (for more than 10 minutes) was BfA with the “No Ice Lance” build, so I totally understand that. There should be no world in which it’s best to not ever use a proc or end your proc early because it just doesn’t do enough damage.

But I’ll put out there that BfA was the worst expansion (at least mechanically) we’ve had for a while. I know there are a lot of haters out there for Shadowlands and the Covenant system, but I felt like I could actually play Shadowlands compared to BfA. That said, systems like the “Corruption” that they added in the last season of BfA would be fun during the Fated end-of-expansion seasons. Something completely bonkers that’s never going to stay - just for fun.

Rambling aside, Blizzard promised us some changes during last season and what we got was what they always give us: half-baked. Yes, what they did was (at least for the most part) very helpful for us in a lot of ways (I cannot understate that enough - the updates we got were good), but we need more. Mages as a whole really do need a “back-to-the-basics” update that can try to reestablish our niche in the game, especially with Hero Talents looming on the horizon. The beta for the next expansion would be the best time for that.

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