Failing the timer has no consequence other than reducing the key by 1. If a player is starting out I think they are just learning the dungeons and should not really be looking to push that key anyway. Completion runs still drop 2 items, count for vault, and drop valor. They should become accustomed to the normal timer and just ignore it and do what they do. This is a point we will likely not agree on and thats okay.
While I agree mechanically, there exists a mental hiccup with how that experience “Feels”. Completion runs feel like failure to some players, and they aren’t a failure as you’ve rightly pointed out. This is a minor issue that most players can just come to terms with, but by allowing those lower keys to be “successful” could help motivate the learner.
That’s why I’d like to see a graduated system. If we go all the way down to the +2 keys, for instance, we could add 8m to the timer, and a minute drops off every key level. It wouldn’t be a big change but it could impact a small % of players psychologically.
It’s not a make or break issue though, that’s for sure. I’m just trying to think of all the ways to ease players in a bit, or at least smooth the learning curve out some.
It’s like learning to ride a bike on training wheels and then one day they are gone. Get the band aids ready! Like you said though it would make the adjustment more difficult than learning to ignore it at the start.
It’s similar to the problem with adding the seasonal affix at 10. It’s an odd dip down in difficulty due to the bonus that comes with dealing with the affix. Its got a good internal reward (deal with this problem, get this reward), which no other affix has. I’d like to see it moved to the first affix added. These affixes highlight the fun and skill progression reward that M+ does best in my opinion.
In turn, I think you guys are right about keeping the timer (at least for progressing keys, an optional no-timer might be still up for discussion). Although graduating the timer down to where it is at now at +10 from more time at 2s might help with some of the toxicity issues that occasionally crop up.
I agree with you there. There were small learning curves with each of the three seasonal affixes, but a +9 always felt harder than a +10 as long as the group knew what the affix was.
I have mentioned this multiple times on these forums but the key penalty is probably my biggest problem with M+ in general. I would dare say it is the cause of the frustrations and toxicity that surrounds the system.
I personally like what they’ve done with the Torghast wings; you complete the difficulty before it but once you do, you always have access to that difficulty. Honestly I dare say removing the keystone aspect and just letting people choose the dungeon and difficulty they want would be better in the long run. Yes, I understand we might end up with mother Maw of Souls issue, but I feel like that’s on Blizzard’s dungeon design rather than the structure of M+ itself.
One thing I much prefer of CMs over the M+ system that became is just that freedom of choice. Sure, I can jump into LFG and apply for a dungeon I want because someone else has the key, but I could get continually declined and have to instead hope my key randomly becomes my target dungeon which who knows how long that could take?
Outside of M+, I also still strongly believe M0 should be queueable. One of the issues I’ve seen with newer players that I’ve tried to introduce is that confusion of how M0 connects to M+ at all and it really doesn’t outside of the name. Each dungeon is locked to one run a week and rewards items that are on the low side. It also requires people to be populating the M0 queue when many would prefer to simply jump to +2 the moment someone in their group gets a key.
I think a queueable M0 is a great idea. Firstly, it allows me to use the word queueable which I love 'cus it looks like a bunch of vowels standing in a line waiting to get into the club. Secondly, it makes a lot of internal sense when looking at the LFR/Heroic/Mythic/M+ system. I’d be on board.
Excellent thoughtful post, OP, but sadly based on two pipe dreams.
First, that players be patient with newbies. Won’t happen. Ever.
Second, that Blizz care about making M-plus more accessible for more players. Won’t happen. Ever.
Just removing the key depletion mechanic will go a long way.
I also feel if they ever uncap valor a lot earlier or somehow rework that system the rating requirements should be a lot higher than they are now.
A player should look at getting a 278 from pugging mythic+ and pugging the mythic raid and feel their chances of success are pretty equal between both.
“Don’t care about gear, don’t care about timers.”
“Now start caring.”
A lot of these “changes” were standard in Legion when lots of players did lots of low keys.
Valor, nope. Gearing felt rewarding in low keys in Legion. Nobody asked for valor to be brought back. And people worked together. Better players cruised the group finder looking for keys to carry, because they had an incentive to help learners.
Why even have a system that will be useful to so few players and an incentive to play the content for next to none?
This is just one of the unfortunate reasons I do not want to run M+ keys. I will run lower keys with my guild mates and friends because we always have someone in the group who knows all the tips and tricks. Very helpful on voice comms because you can then get an explanation immediately. Besides, its a friendly atmosphere and we have fun in the process.
I have a short term memory issue which was caused by a long ago car accident. So I have trouble remembering some things. Its easier if I am actually experiencing it and redo it with the correction. I can watch a video all day and never remember any of it.
I think the op has some really good points and support his ideas. I think they are very valid points. But as a whole at this point in time for M+ dungeons, I am not really interested in them. However, if the design of them changed to offer something not connected to a punishing e-sport type of experience, I might reconsider.
Something what gets lost and forgotten real easy is just how much instance specific knowledge you pick up over the year or two you’ve been playing and just how far behind the curve someone new is.
See it a lot trying to help people gear up for raid and the advice I typically give is just run more. You’ll get kicked, runs will go bad. Don’t worry about that. When it happens go research what went wrong and run some more.
honestly ZM greens that you can buy from npc is more than enough to get you started in m+ from +2 to possible +7. And you dont need to buy 291 lego as well. The 235 will suffice. I’ve timed 15s w/ 235 lego and still feel fine
My biggest issue from M+ has always been loot rng. Ofc I know loot rng is a base part of mmos but especially with m+'s not getting loot is super frustrating.
You have to deal with a numerous amounts of issues before even getting to the loot time.
Not playing M+ consistantly
Since the introduction of blizzards IO system ive noticed that players who didnt start doing m+ early on or focused on raids have a hard time. People look at low/no score and no invite often completing disregarding the key level or the persons gear.
Finding a group.
Majority of people don’t have the luxury to look for that specific dungeon that drops their bis items. They grab whatever is available and hope to get invited. Sitting in lobby refreshing looking for that 3-5, 6-8, 9-12, 13-16 group brakets (example) and being denied for 40mins straight is a depressing way to start.
Bad group luck.
Leavers, ragers, toxic people. Starting a m+ only to spend x amount of time with non comitted people just to get a timed out key at the end and no reward for time spent.
Loot.
Especially this expansion i have grown to dislike m+ loot because of conduits. Working hard to grind out a dungeon only to get a conduit for the wrong spec (happens frequently) is such an artifical loot system I truely hate it.
Then to do dozens of dungeons a week only to get a peice of loot for a slot where ur specs bis leggo is.
I fundamentally like what M+ represents but god do I feel like grinding out m+'s for loot is unsatisfying.
this is the reason why we always advocate to start your own group. Having no score means people see you as you’re not experience enough. Dont try to push thru m+ level you’re not experience in. It’s a ladder system. Take that ladder a step at a time.
when you’re trying to gear up. Don’t worry about your bis gear. Look at what ilvl upgrade can I get and work from there. Character optimization starts after you’re geared and not while getting gear. I would put whatever upgrade I can find at the start until I am fully geared and then start looking at specific pieces after.
Again. This doesn’t happen much. But if it happens to you alot have you considered you’re the issue? Sometime being honest to yourself help.
conduit only drops the 1st time you enter the dungeon when you can find a conduit upgrade. It’s a 100% drop rate and doesn’t affect your loot table.
This isnt a long term solution for a weekly grind especially considering that varied ilvl people apply to groups. Personally i usually have a 6-8 key from chest i will mostly do 1 at most 2 dungeons and then its at a level where im too low geared to adequately finish a key. (While i havent done that many keys this expansion i spent most of bfa and all of legion doing keys).
This section was more to the wait time to get into keys being a stop gap to doing keys. If i have 1 hour to play wow a night a 40min wait time to get into a group is not feasable to progression. Even 1 hour plytime a day is progression.
Ive always hated this mentality. Its no offense to you personally because this is literally a point brought up everwhere on the internet but Its just a copypasta (imo). I own up to mistakes, given the current pacing i always admit on the spot if i did something wrong (everyone makes mistakes) but my luck is historically horrid. In bfa i went an entire season without getting my personal key timed once. 3 weeks ina row (will never forget this, i had the tank leave after first trash pull) For every person who gets bis geared within 4 weeks there will be another who didnt get anything, luck doesnt discriminate.
Thanks for clearing it up! however for me it still doesnt change the fact that seeing conduits and no loot is worse than no loot and no conduits. Like in Legion where getting artifact slots (whatever they were called cant think of it atm), was never like loot itself.
Quite frankly the lack of “loot protection” in the gsme is quite sad, even a token system would go a long way to making even non loot dungeons feel more worthwhile. (Time expenditure).