I agree with this 100%. The more fun people have, the more likely they will continue to do whatever the content is. It also removes much of the toxicity from the experience. People become angry because they feel like they wasted their time, and they wasted the key. They then take it out on the others in the group.
Sure there is that crowd that believes in either succeed or fail, but this is a game, and a person’s time in a game should be fun, not punishing.
Yeah, I think a graduated system would help a lot (and I’ve edited up above to add this).
Basically no timer till +5. Then for every level below 10 add 2m to the timer. So a +5 has an extra 10 minutes compared to a 10. This keeps the advantages of a timer, but makes it far more forgiving. The timer should, however, only add +2 and +3 to your key at their current time remaining. The +1 band should be the part increased (to avoid easily ranking a key beyond a new players skill).
Actually, I would like to see them add an option of not having a timer. Some people want to experience the challenge that affixes bring, but don’t want to deal with the stress and toxicity that making a mistake when under the pressure of time. I’m one of those people. I loved the challenge of high keys, but I hated how quickly a fun time turned negative if someone made a simple mistake. So I opt to not run keys any more.
That could work too. Perhaps a no-timer option. Running without a timer could mean you won’t gain key value (just a different dungeon) but it could also remove the depletion penalty. That way players could simply do completion runs at their own pace. It could be added to the key placement UI that allows for a drop down menu for running your key lower.
Or they could just create a “no timer key” tree so that if you make it through the dungeon, you get a 1 level higher “no timer key”. It then won’t enrage the “you must make the time or you’re bad” crowd, and it might inspire those who just want to try challenge mode content to give it a try.
Introductory Statement: A+
Glad you noticed the truth. People come here and try to play it off as if it’s non-stop and every time they run a key.
I am going to strongly disagree that gearing is a hurdle. World quests and LFR alone makes you out gear M+2 through 9. Gear is almost never what prevents players from progressing, it’s skill.
Yeah, as stated above it is the skill gap that players struggle with. Class/spec skill and understanding the dungeon mechanics.
Players new to M+ should learn to play with the timer from day 1, but ignore it. Removing the timer only to introduce it later will cause more harm. Having them learn to do things a certain way from M+2 through +10 and then suddenly have to deal with a timer will be a major adjustment. Best to learn with the timer and ignore the timer. If you beat it, great. If not, that’s ok and make adjustments next time.
I see your point, but I think gear is a hurdle, because some players just don’t know how to get it, or don’t have the time to farm the world. It’s not as big a hurdle as skill, that we agree on I think.
As for the timer, I personally think a graduated timer is best of the options discussed so far. It keeps the timer in play, but eases the pressure considerably at low levels.
I think just doing ZM campaign, world quests, and maybe a couple LFR’s will replace most leveling gear slots. 2 slots are automatically legendaries so that also helps reduce what needs to be farmed.
I agree that WoW isn’t the most intuitive and guides are almost required for new and returning players.
Failing the timer has no consequence other than reducing the key by 1. If a player is starting out I think they are just learning the dungeons and should not really be looking to push that key anyway. Completion runs still drop 2 items, count for vault, and drop valor. They should become accustomed to the normal timer and just ignore it and do what they do. This is a point we will likely not agree on and thats okay.
Good post, thanks for sharing your experience.
I thought the timer sucked when I started to do M+ and even though I don’t care about people’s asinine comments, that was also in the back of my mind since I pug everything.
However, if you take away the timers from anything below +10, you REALLY dumb down the difficulty, planning, etc. If you also start removing affixes too, once you hit a +11 it’ll hit you in the face like a ton of bricks.
M+ has issues, but one thing they get right is the scaling of the affixes is correct. Like you can go in and totally fail a million times at a million things and still time a +2. You can have 20-30 deaths and still time a +4, assuming at least ONE person is doing some good DPS.
As you get higher the group starts to matter more. So people in lower keys can lean on the others in the group who you would assume have more experience, maybe an alt, or whatever.
I ran a +12 NW on my Resto Shaman yesterday and we had a Mage that was doing legit 3.5k DPS overall, no joke. I even asked if he was a bot in chat a few times. We still timed it, with like 10 deaths and some bad tanking.
Failing the timer has no consequence other than reducing the key by 1. If a player is starting out I think they are just learning the dungeons and should not really be looking to push that key anyway. Completion runs still drop 2 items, count for vault, and drop valor. They should become accustomed to the normal timer and just ignore it and do what they do. This is a point we will likely not agree on and thats okay.
While I agree mechanically, there exists a mental hiccup with how that experience “Feels”. Completion runs feel like failure to some players, and they aren’t a failure as you’ve rightly pointed out. This is a minor issue that most players can just come to terms with, but by allowing those lower keys to be “successful” could help motivate the learner.
That’s why I’d like to see a graduated system. If we go all the way down to the +2 keys, for instance, we could add 8m to the timer, and a minute drops off every key level. It wouldn’t be a big change but it could impact a small % of players psychologically.
It’s not a make or break issue though, that’s for sure. I’m just trying to think of all the ways to ease players in a bit, or at least smooth the learning curve out some.
It’s like learning to ride a bike on training wheels and then one day they are gone. Get the band aids ready! Like you said though it would make the adjustment more difficult than learning to ignore it at the start.
It’s similar to the problem with adding the seasonal affix at 10. It’s an odd dip down in difficulty due to the bonus that comes with dealing with the affix. Its got a good internal reward (deal with this problem, get this reward), which no other affix has. I’d like to see it moved to the first affix added. These affixes highlight the fun and skill progression reward that M+ does best in my opinion.
In turn, I think you guys are right about keeping the timer (at least for progressing keys, an optional no-timer might be still up for discussion). Although graduating the timer down to where it is at now at +10 from more time at 2s might help with some of the toxicity issues that occasionally crop up.
I agree with you there. There were small learning curves with each of the three seasonal affixes, but a +9 always felt harder than a +10 as long as the group knew what the affix was.
How about this thought:
What if completion gave you the same level key. Quitting drops your key by 1, timing improves it.
I’d be interested to read your guys’ reaction to that idea.
Yet Another M+ Discussion - Community / General Discussion - World of Warcraft Forums (blizzard.com)
I have mentioned this multiple times on these forums but the key penalty is probably my biggest problem with M+ in general. I would dare say it is the cause of the frustrations and toxicity that surrounds the system.
I personally like what they’ve done with the Torghast wings; you complete the difficulty before it but once you do, you always have access to that difficulty. Honestly I dare say removing the keystone aspect and just letting people choose the dungeon and difficulty they want would be better in the long run. Yes, I understand we might end up with mother Maw of Souls issue, but I feel like that’s on Blizzard’s dungeon design rather than the structure of M+ itself.
One thing I much prefer of CMs over the M+ system that became is just that freedom of choice. Sure, I can jump into LFG and apply for a dungeon I want because someone else has the key, but I could get continually declined and have to instead hope my key randomly becomes my target dungeon which who knows how long that could take?
Outside of M+, I also still strongly believe M0 should be queueable. One of the issues I’ve seen with newer players that I’ve tried to introduce is that confusion of how M0 connects to M+ at all and it really doesn’t outside of the name. Each dungeon is locked to one run a week and rewards items that are on the low side. It also requires people to be populating the M0 queue when many would prefer to simply jump to +2 the moment someone in their group gets a key.
I think a queueable M0 is a great idea. Firstly, it allows me to use the word queueable which I love 'cus it looks like a bunch of vowels standing in a line waiting to get into the club. Secondly, it makes a lot of internal sense when looking at the LFR/Heroic/Mythic/M+ system. I’d be on board.
Excellent thoughtful post, OP, but sadly based on two pipe dreams.
First, that players be patient with newbies. Won’t happen. Ever.
Second, that Blizz care about making M-plus more accessible for more players. Won’t happen. Ever.
Just removing the key depletion mechanic will go a long way.
I also feel if they ever uncap valor a lot earlier or somehow rework that system the rating requirements should be a lot higher than they are now.
A player should look at getting a 278 from pugging mythic+ and pugging the mythic raid and feel their chances of success are pretty equal between both.
“Don’t care about gear, don’t care about timers.”
“Now start caring.”
A lot of these “changes” were standard in Legion when lots of players did lots of low keys.
Valor, nope. Gearing felt rewarding in low keys in Legion. Nobody asked for valor to be brought back. And people worked together. Better players cruised the group finder looking for keys to carry, because they had an incentive to help learners.
Why even have a system that will be useful to so few players and an incentive to play the content for next to none?