And I’m sooooo tired of hearing people complaining about an event that happens so seldom. People. Don’t. Leave. Good. Groups.
This echo chamber of bad ideas isn’t healthy for the rest of us
I’m not saying it happens often, but it happens, and it’s frustrating to the people it happens to. Do you bail on groups after the first wipe/death without saying anything and are feeling personally attacked here?
Maybe I’ll be the first to admit that I actually do this in low keys. If I’m trolling through some low keys looking for whatever (mog, gold, helping friends) I actually want to get them done in a timely fashion. Be about 10m into a Nokhud 5 and we still haven’t killed Granyth, we wipe on him one time and I will be out. That’s a very low key that anyone with reasonable ilvl should be able to handle it.
High keys? I’ve done a 10 at most this season mostly because I’m extremely nervous. Why? For reasons listed above (and also because I’m a dog groomer and it’s been the holiday season). So how do I combat this anxiety? I make my own group and I suck it up when someone leaves - especially if it’s a bad dungeon or a key I think it’s too high for my group. Reform with a new comp, or new self spec, and usually I can clear it.
If you guys want “vote to do stuff” then join a guild, make an addon and only invite people with addons, or go play another game. Legit trying to overhaul or add something that rips out the core social aspect of the game by adding in a “we don’t want to talk so here’s a yes/no button”.
Y’all salty, and you still stay salty because my lack of experience doesn’t change that this is a HORRIBLE idea.
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This isn’t the scenario we’re talking about here. You are not the problem leading to the frustration so many people are venting. Unless you are not being truthful about the timeline.
Whoa there fella, I never said the OP’s idea is a good one. Trolling can go both ways and I have no interest in finding myself held hostage by a group who has deliberately decided to mess with me.
However, their ineffective suggestion doesn’t change the fact that they are right to be frustrated that people can, and do, bail on keys that still have a reasonable chance to be timed, and that the only repercussions are to the key holder and not the person who chose to force the issue by leaving prematurely.
You are correct, everyone has their own right to be frustrated about stuff whatever it is. And typically… when one person leaves… I’m thinking about doing the same thing and it’s almost a blessing.
I just personally don’t agree with the idea of implementing a punishment because this guy doesn’t like that he can’t cuss people out for various things, including leaving. To me it sounds like HE is the problem in his groups, blaming other people verbally abusing them, and then got a wrist slap temp suspension and now he’s crying that he can’t do that anymore.
While I don’t agree with his particular punishment, I do believe there should be repercussions for your actions. Should you be locked out of grouping entirely because you bailed on a key? No, not really… there are always circumstances where you need to leave and heck, everybody has a bad day sometimes. We forgive you, move on.
However, should you be locked out of keys for a period of time because you consistently leave groups that could have timed or just behave poorly in general while running keys? Yea probably. Take a timeout, think about your life choices, and come back when you’re ready to play nice with others.
Taking it back to the time pre x-server when being a total tool netted you bad reputation and you couldn’t find groups unless you server transferred lol
Honestly I feel like the best way to avoid that type of situation is again by vetting your groups, and if you get a leaver then block that person and you never will experience that particular person again (within limits). If we HAD to have a punishment, then it should probably be gold and buff related like res sickness. ~Leaving this dangerous encounter inflicts damage to your pride. Your stats will be reduced by 90% for 30 minutes, and you will have an aura of gloom surrounding you spreading to allies within 50 yards.~
I’ve been running keys regularly since s2 of bfa and I’ve dropped 2 keys. One wasn’t even a full pug, it was a friend’s key and one of the 2 pugs was being a douche and I was having a long day so I bowed out. The second was mists during sl s3 I do believe. It was fortified inspiring and i was getting more mob control than anyone as a resto druid and they refused to focus the inspired or cc him out of the group. After 10 straight minutes in the same pack i dipped. I was there for the trinket, i didn’t care if we timed or not but i wasn’t in the mood to sit there for an hour to find out.
Being given an automated timeout because you’ve proven yourself to be a nuisance is not the same as being black listed. I never said you shouldn’t be given an opportunity for redemption.
If you are this kind of player, I have no reliable way to vet you, the game should do that for me. We aren’t talking a single occurrence here, but instead a consistent pattern of behaviour. If you get flagged, the entire group finder should be disabled for you until a couple of days, or even a week, has passed. After which, hopefully, you’ve gotten the point and play nicer with others. Once a reasonable amount of time the system should even forget that you were ever a problem to begin with.
Cool, then…
I never said I was. I’m saying that it’s not the problem people are making it out to be.
But why? End game was designed to be organized. LFG is designed to make that easier for you, it’s not there to automate it or regulate it.
I still say that leaving the group is playing a lot nicer than what would transpire if they had to stay. If I’m in a group that’s going nowhere and I had to stay or my account would be flagged for days or even a week, trust me when I say I’ma just sit there until someone else goes. People shouldn’t be forced to play with each other. It’s a game.
Stop. It is not necessarily poor behavior. This is the disconnect. There are situations when it is entirely appropriate.
Except the group leader actually has control over who to invite, so yeah.
If you build your house under an old dead tree that is a stiff breeze from falling over, then yeah, that’s your fault.
False equivalence. Mugging is a crime. It’s safe to say it’s always bad behavior to mug someone. Leaving a group you don’t want to be in isn’t inherently wrong. That’s the difference.
Except that isn’t what I said. Read it again:
Taking the 4 highest io scores you can find is not at all equivalent to taking a score “high enough to suggest they are reasonably competent at the content you’re building a group for”.
People will generally do what is in their best interest. If you want to complete a 15 and aren’t concerned if it is timed or not as long as it gets finished, then you need to invite 4 other people with the same mindset. People that need a 15 for score, timed or not, people that need a piece of gear, people who need valor. But if you invite someone with nothing to gain from completion, valor capped for the week, no need of gear, and no score increase for failing the timer, the chances of them staying if things start to fail is very low. Having some kind of awareness of the different reasons that people do keys and communicating with the people you’re inviting to see if everyone is on the same page is the group leader’s responsibility.
The very first time I tanked a 15 pug, in the first season I started tanking, someone in the group told me to invite one of the people app’ing because they had a really high score in the key. They jumped in discord with us and I asked, point blank, if they were comfortable finishing with or without the timer. They asked why we wouldn’t time it. I said it’s my first time tanking at 15, and I don’t know if I’ll make mistakes or not. They said, yeah, I’m really just here to time it. They agreed it was best to find a different group and we found a different dps. If you care about finishing keys, you need to put time into group forming instead of complaining on the forums that the people you invited aren’t sticking around.
Except it is. It’s generally clueless people who have no idea how bad their run is going when they’re telling us that “everything was going perfectly when this person just left for no reason”. It is ridiculous fantasy to assume there are people who get some kind of pleasure wasting their own time to join a key, get halfway through on the way to 2 chesting and quit for the lols. People quit when they aren’t getting what they wanted or expected from the group. That’s the truth that no one making these threads wants to hear.
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This is exactly the type of situation people are talking about. Let me rephrase it so it will look more familiar. We were doing a Nokhud 5 and everything was going fine. We had a little mixup on the boss and we wiped, but we still had plenty of time to finish the key in time when someone just left the group. After one wipe. WE NEED PUNISHMENTS FOR THIS!!!
No, it’s your group not the game’s. You can absolutely reliably vet someone and, with pretty high precision, anticipate based on their scores, their gear, and the dungeon you’re doing if they have a motivation to stick to the finish regardless of timer or not. Then you can talk to them prior to putting the key in to get an even better idea of what they’re thinking.
That’s not what the vast majority of people are here talking about. You’re sweeping all the legitimate problems under the rug by focusing on the small percentage where it’s appropriate to leave early. Which is also never the case without at least cursory conversation with your group.
You’re so caught up in blaming everybody except the people who are actually the problem.
I’m fairly certain the small percentage is the amount of people who leave for bad reasons which is what these threads are about. Just because you don’t understand the reason doesn’t mean there isn’t a good one. Would you prefer someone call you out for the mistakes you’ve made? Not everyone is built like that.
Did to read beyond the first sentence? I know it’s a long post but it’s a well said one.
Yes, it is, you’re just not understanding that the people claiming that people leaving their perfect keys with plenty of time to finish on time are misrepresenting or misunderstanding the facts.
You have the numbers reversed. If there are any actual trolling problems they represent a miniscule amount of the times when someone leaves early. The overwhelming majority are leaving when they no longer believe they’re going to get from the key what they thought they were getting when they joined.
People often complain about players leaving after “just one wipe” but they don’t talk about what happened. Not all wipes are the same. It can sometimes be clear very early in a dungeon when the group is at a key level that is way over their head. The person who recognizes that may do their best to hold things together but ultimately decides it’s best to avoid sunk cost and leave when the inevitable wipe happens. Then a key holder comes in here and complains about a troll that abandoned a key that “was going fine”.
I did a 20 Mists last season on Explosive week and I had 80% of the explosive damage and 75% of the interrupts. We kept wiping to explosives going off and critical missed interrupts. My favorite was on the 2nd boss when I got to 4 of the 5 orbs that spawned, spread all over the room, and the one that I didn’t get myself killed people. None of the other 4 people even knew what went wrong. They asked in chat “what happened?”. Those are the people making these threads.
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Yeah this is the coherent thought I could not put together lol
If DPS is low for several first pulls, and then we wipe on the 3rd boss I’m thinking “yeah this isn’t going to be timed” and leave after 19mins in, instead of hammering my face into a wall for the next 45min waiting in between heroism debuffs to try to attempt to finish it.
If the healer isn’t dispelling during trash and we wipe during a boss due to an ESSENTIAL debuff not being dispelled? I might give it one more try after mentioning the dispell… then leave if it happens again because clearly it’s serial.
If the tank is taking massive amounts of damage for seemingly no reason (not rotating defensives or literally their basic rotation of pressing buttons to spend resources), not holding aggro (presses single target only spells), not waiting for mana (4 packs ahead dying with dps) - I tend to be EXTREMELY hesitant to want to continue. Overpull by a significant amount and then complain “wtf no healz?”? I will probably leave because this tank has way too high of expectations in their own ability.
I did, and no it’s not. It’s a long winded way to justify pushing responsibility for leaving a key early on anybody except the actual person who left the key. Even the non-game examples I gave, he immediately went to reasons why it’s the victim’s fault instead of asking good, solid questions to find out more.
It’s this assumption that it’s the victim’s fault that is the problem here, nothing more. It’s a problem here on these forums and, frankly, it’s a problem in the real world too.
In WoW’s case, you sign up for a group, you make a commitment to that group while it’s reasonable to continue. I’m making no claims that the definition of “reasonable” is black and white, therein lies the challenge to this whole situation, but if you violate that commitment outside of what is reasonable, you should be held accountable. Period.
It’s my job as a group leader to do the best I can to make an effective group, but if I invite someone who looks like they have a reasonable score and even say they are down to complete the run, but they turn around and bail without a word when the run is going well, then that person is to blame, not me. Yet if I were to come here to discuss this, instead of getting any kind of support, you get interrogated by the pro-squad and blamed or put down.
When used to pug, I saw exactly this maybe anywhere between 5% to 10% of my keys. Sure, sometimes the run was just dead and someone would bail, but this is the small percentage of the small percentage I’m talking about. All the other times, people would bail after minor mistakes or setbacks when the timer was still very much attainable. Heck I remember one run last expac where the tank just outright bailed. Perfectly smooth run, maybe a tad low on DPS but everything was going great, then he just left. You could see him thinking about it too lol, between trash packs he’d pause for a minute, look around, then pull. Another and then he just bailed. We thought maybe connection issues but nope, we looked him up, he was still online he just left. Dead key I guess. I felt bad for the rest of the group so I told them I’d do another run. We grabbed a new tank and timed it just fine.
But if I were to come here to talk about it… nope, it’s my fault (or the key holder’s fault in this case). I didn’t do enough. I wasn’t careful enough. I should have asked better questions. Dude, some people are just jerks or don’t have any patience. That’s honestly the majority of the cases. Most humans tend to act poorly when there are no social or economic consequences to their actions and that is exactly what region-wide linked group finding has afforded them. And you folks sit here and defend that.
It’s wrong.
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No, no they are not and this is yet again another way to blame others. Again, if I join the group and nothing is said I expect we at least have a shot to time the key and people can do the most basic of things.
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I think communication goes both ways. People joining the group are making a commitment too. They decided not to do the work themselves, form a group and push their own key. When they join another person’s run, they are committing to finishing that run. If they don’t want to be patient, that is ok, but they should say upfront when they join the group what their personal expectations are (as should the leader if they cannot put them in the description). Both sides should be communicating expectations.
On the OP, I don’t feel a penalty is the right answer. That’s too easy to exploit. I’m more of a fan of the game adding API to provide run statistics on people who apply to your key. Stuff like runs attempted, runs completed, active runs left, active runs kicked from, active runs where you kicked someone from your own run, etc. Let the community decide how to make addons and parse that data so that when a person is looking for applicants, they can decide for themselves the risk factor. High score but has a 60% leave rate on active keys? Maybe skip on that person if you are going for completion. People who either think leaving keys is ok or don’t care can just snag the person and go.
Either way, I feel like we just need more tools to make the decision rather than straight up penalties.