M+, RIO, & the Playerbase: a Discussion

So this will be a long post but the overall point is while I agree with you the IO is just a tool the problem lies with accessibility. As games get older the game has to work to make sure that more players have the ability to be exposed to the content as possible. Right now under the current state of the game that does not exist. That issue when coupled with the fact that Blizzard does an absolute horrible job of class balance you find yourself in a situation that actually fosters toxicity and resentment among players.

I don’t see this entitlement. I think you have the view twisted. People don’t want to jump immediately into +15 but they would like a way to understand how to get there, how the content feels, and what’s to be expected. So far once you hit 60 you can start running all the dungeons and Keystones. But WoW does a pretty crappy job explaining how they work. Even the Adventurers log doesn’t go into key details about what happens. The jump from Heroic to Mythic is also harder because the dungeon adds abilities that you don’t see in normal or heroic —and then keystones also add unique abilities. This is just a bad design unless you have a chance for players to enter a separate instance that shows them this is what happens and this is how you should react.

That’s the core of the issue. On one side you have a group of players who only want good players and demand it from their groups. But instead of saying to them while PUGing get a guild so you don’t have to lug—you say to the person who has no idea what they’re doing go find a guild who will teach you. Let’s be real here a good teaching guild is far more rare than a decent progression guild that has an active group.

So this gets into my next point the game from 1-60 is not the same game as the one from 60+. In fact the game is so rapidly different that you could be playing an entirely different game all together. What do I mean by this? Well let’s take plaguefall for example. Plaguefall has unique boss mechanics that I did not see once while soloing from 1-60 or from any normal dungeon I ran in LFD. That’s a huge issue. Veteran players are used to that kind of content. Players who are leveling for the first time, or haven’t played WoW before how are they expected to understand this? Claiming that you should watch YouTube isn’t a solution either. Imagine if you’re trying to teach a child math—and your answer is watch YouTube. That’s not how people learn. They learn from experience and mistakes.

This is the majority…most players do this but most also get burned out around 2-5 because typically this when the meta comes into play. Plus the toxicity jumps a significant amount from 6+. So what are some solutions?

  1. Training Grounds—Doesn’t have to be the instance but it can have several mechanics that expose players to what they’ll be facing. For example the training dummies are great for getting a rotation down, but what about a separate instance that lets you do this while dodging lava pools. This instance should also show you how LoS works, what soaking means, and how to work on your rotation if you need to switch adds. This small 1 player instance can be used to teach so many players how to use the game and honestly blizzard should have a quest line pop up for you once you hit 60 so you know how to work your class

  2. Fix class balance!! This probably should be number 1. So many players get hung up on that’s not how it was in the past or this class has been on top for 2 expansions. Ya I’m gonna give you some advice—NONE OF THAT MATTERS there’s Zero excuse for Blizzard and Ion and his team to have such a disparity among DPS, Tanking, and Healing from the top to the bottom. It’s unacceptable. Quite frankly it’s unprofessional and makes them look like rank amateurs. Literally a lot of the toxicity would go away if all the specs were viable. Meaning that they’re within 1% of one another. Don’t hand me—this is how it’s always been BS—FF14 has a bunch of jobs and classes and each one of them is viable. That needs to be addressed it’s pathetic how many people make excuses for it. Grow up, fix you stuff blizz.

  3. Matchmaking. Tons of players have opposition to this. But in any other game going forward matchmaking will be the Norm and WoW will represent the past. There’s no logical reason why a game can’t make a matchmaking system based off your character so you’re only running content that you’re geared, and qualified for. It’s beyond dumb to say oh well this content is harder and you don’t want to play with bad people right? Well in any other game a matchmaking system woul exist where you’d be grouped based off your ranking. That’s what IO seeks to do but instead of the game providing an objective matchmaking your putting your faith in the hands of people who more often than not are crappy and piss poor manners.

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only thing that gets me RN, is people asking for like 600 io minimum for +7 runs… in order to GET a 600 io you need ~4 time at a 7 and ~4 timed at an 8.

its like people forgot basic math and don’t realize that we don’t have 12 dungeons anymore, so you can’t get +100 to your io score just by timing everything at the previous key level.

I don’t have a problem with r.io in general (and I do push my own keys quite often) but sometimes there is a drop from a particular dungeon i’m angling for, or a certain dungeon I want to time in ORDER to raise my IO. and needing to wade through all the groups with unreasonable io limits kinda sucks… but ultimately, thats a player issue, not a game or an rio issue.

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Now this I completely agree. While I do think anyone determined enough can get that information elsewhere, I completely agree that they shouldn’t be required to. Leveling and endgame are completely different games and yet new players are supposed to just know all of this stuff.

I do think the new character experience they created is great for preparing new players for the leveling experience, but there needs to be more effort into preparing them for endgame.

I don’t use IO personally but I do believe IO is just a fancy term for “social ranking number” and shouldn’t be a deciding factor on who gets invited or not. Not every person that will get declined is actually bad and it isn’t a majority thing either that are bad, most people can pull their weight. I won’t conform to social like systems that enable dictatorship qualities in people, we all have the same tendency to be very stingy about things and IO reinforces that bad behavior in anyone who uses it.

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Do you only pug all your runs? No guildies who will do a high key for completion? It’s not like you actually have to time it to get loot at the end and the great vault.

If the addon was broken and removed, people would find something else to use for exclusion of others.

People not learning mechanics is the problem.

I’ve never liked using IO raider… but find myself using it for the first time.

The amount of people that ignore boss mechanics is mind staggering.

I did a +3 sanguine depths that ended up falling apart (couldn’t find anyone with IO raider so I just took what I could get).

On the second boss the party was taking an average of nearly 7k damage per second because of failed mechanics.

That’s insane. No one group should take that much damage on only a +2.

… It’s literally just an easy to see version of what keys you’ve done. Everything it tells you can be seen in your armory anyway.

You’re way down the rabbit hole.

Why shouldn’t people have any standards when they form groups?

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What’s wrong with wanting to only do dungeons with people that know the content?

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So, what should be the deciding factor?

I listed a +12 plaguefall earlier tonight, looking for one dps, and within 30 seconds had 30 or more dps in the list.

What factor should I use to pick one person from the list?

No, but in a list of people the only information I have access to is
Name
Server
Class/Role
Ilvl
IO (Experience, either overall or in that specific dungeon)

How would you suggest people decide who to invite, keeping in mind, their goal is to invite the person most likely to contribute to the group’s success (ie: timing the key)

This is actually pretty false.
most people have no idea how to use their full toolkit in m+. They don’t know what to stun, they aren’t running interrupt trackers, so they’re overlapping interrupts (if they’re even interrupting in the first place), they likely don’t know mechanics on the bosses, talking about a route ahead of time is a foreign concept, and if dps, they likely think they don’t even need to know the route.

Are there good players in LFG? yep. But most? nah

caveat: that changes a bit once you get to higher keys/io, but the low to mid-range key area is… not a pool of great players just held back by the man.

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Get a guild

I have a guild?

Most irrelevant comment for 500

I mean i would take a high over a low everytime /shrug i dont get why people cant just deal with it experience > all

like the built-in ilvl and the wowprogress list of … wow progress ?

Keep in mind, I am certainly not a Rio snob although I believe it has its place and I also like the folks that just push it for an absurdly high score.

I have definitely found that to be untrue, at least this early in the expansion. Recently I’ve been helping a friend (i heal, he is tanking) get a score in every dungeon and just generally working on his tanking skills/experience.

So we’ve been doing low keys (2-5s mostly.) Obviously, we don’t care about Rio at that level, but its crazy how many dps we get that have no idea what the mechanics are in any given boss fight.

Watching dummies flounder around and die on Xav in Theater of Pain when their soul is taken, and they won’t go run and get it. Despite the fact that the game puts a giant arrow on their soul so that they can easily distinguish it and get to it.

Players that refuse to soak mechanics. Players that refuse to interrupt. Players that don’t understand the very basic concepts of moving between two packs without aggro’ing them.

Players that will 100% never have any consumables to include food, flask, embalming oil, 99% won’t even have a healing potion. Heck, if we have a warlock (so they get free cookies) they don’t even use them. Watch a kid die like 7 times and yet he still hasn’t asked the warlock to drop fresh cookies. Why? Because he hasn’t even used the first one, lol.

I lol but it’s actually not amusing. And this doesn’t even get to the idea and concepts behind knowing your class and spec, knowing your utility toolkit, etc. I actually had a DH ask me why do you keep saying drop Darkness? Like, holy crap, open your spellbook.

I absolutely love teaching and helping others get better at any given skill or hobby. In life, I’m a chef and I love it when junior cooks start taking pride in the simple things like good knife skills when chopping onions, or properly clarifying butter etc.

But many many many of the lower end players are very bad, and don’t seem to want to be better. They want to run in, treat every mob like a target dummy, expect the healer to cover any and all mistakes cause they can’t be asked and… oh yea, they need purples at the end of every single dungeon.

Raider io at least gives me a chance to know whether any given player has at least seen and completed what is about to be asked of them.

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M+ needs an in-client progression system. Plain and simple, the elitism around r.io will stop when an in-client rating becomes a thing.

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Raider . io is a bandage fix to pug problem. Pugging itself is a problem and will not be fixed because random ppl will behave randomly.

Don’t pug- that’s it

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they have one, it’s called “running with friends”

If you mean a random group system for m+? no. that would be awful - groups would fail because that’s what random groups do when faced with any degree of difficulty*, then the masses who refuse to do anything outside of the game that isn’t spoonfed to them via random queues would demand nerfs until they can ten-shot it with their determination stacks, because they’re too bad or disorganized to overcome it otherwise.

*(source: the entire history of the LFD/LFR system within WoW)

this is the solution to all of the raiderio complaint threads.

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It’s a better tool than looking at gear score, I don’t live by it and most people putting together high key runs look at much more than just iO.

Group comp is important, and there may be affixes some classes handle better than others etc. It’s a tool and you’ll have a mixed bag of what people use it for, I’ve had plenty of trash players with 500+ iOs in this expac over the past 2 weeks that I regret inviting for 7-10s.

It’s a disclaimer intended to mislead impressionable readers into thinking it’s not a copy paste flamebait thread.

If you have to start with a disclaimer that you’re not doing something, you actually are.