if m+ isnt fun then… dont do it ?
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• Affixes
@ OP: To expand upon the affixes thing, I think they would be more palatable if in stead of punishing you, they buffed you. It’s like positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement in psychology. There are many ways they could implement this with an “if then” model. “If you stand in this circle, you get a dps buff” or “every 30 seconds, two randomly selected players get a buff whereby they must touch each other to gain 10 seconds of a buff to their dps”, for example, then you buff mob health across the board to compensate. Then, dps and tanks ideally would need to stand in the circle as much as possible to maximize dps. More dps = fun for dps. They have done this halfway with the Thundering Affix (it buffs you) and they did it with the extra demons that you would kill in SL s4, which granted versatility.
The way it is right now, Fortified, Raging, Quaking, Thundering, Tyranical, Bursting, Grievous, Volcanic, Explosive, and Bolstering all equate to “take more damage”. Guess which role gets to deal with that the most? The healer. This is not fun for them and just makes them feel punished constantly.
Overall, I think the affixes would be more acceptable if the dungeon tuning itself were better, but right now it’s ridiculous.
• Valor Cap
I disagree with removing the valor cap. I think it’s fine the way it is.
• Gear killing the need to get raid gear
I think the game would be fine if they actually split the gear up three ways - PvP, m+, and raiding gear. PvP gear is unique in that you have a boatload of stamina. I liked resilience better though, back in the day. M+ gear could somehow give benefits specific to dungeons in a similar way. But that’s a radical idea that will never happen and I know I am outspoken with this. 
@Anxxy woah, we both had the same idea. Just read your post.
• Too many ground mechanics hurt casters @Svelte
I agree. They should have given any caster class a special talent like: “If your spell cast is broken early, that spell’s cast time is reduced by 0.5 / 1 second. Lasts for 3/6 seconds.”
• difficult to see mechanics @Alzaar
I think the worst is the final boss in Court of Stars. It is extremely difficult to see those lines. The miniboss robot in Junkyard (2nd part of it) has that faint blue circle with the one safe pie slice that is impossible to see. I also really hate trees in Court and Jade.
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I think an obvious reason for a decline is that there is no unlimited power gain in SL or DF from m+. there is no longer chance of titanforging, and there is also literally no benefit of doing keys that you don’t need gear from, but in BFA and Legion you would be getting artifact power and weapon power.
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I see this as a good thing.
The playerbase seems to be fairly adamant that infinite grinding is awful.
I’m 100% agreeing to this, the only reason i subbed was they were saying they would have valor uncapped in season 1. Feeling like a fool ngl.
AND WHAT is the point of the valor cap? WE HAVE SEASONS!!! The valor all goes back to 0, and all the things we buy with it becomes entry level garbage after the season.
If you can clear a M+ in 15 minutes AND get bonus valor for +200 valor every single run, it still takes you 15 hours to upgrade ONE SINGLE weapon. WIth the current valor cap it takes 16 ( SIXTEEN WEEKS ARE YOU SERIOUS) to upgrade just one weapon. Developers you are so far out of touch with this valor cap it’s really nauseating. I am fine with it taking 15hours to grind a single weapon to max rank but not wait 16 weeks. Thats… just not right.
it has its ups and downs. it gives players a reason to do content, but it also makes people feel like they have to grind. I personally liked it because even if I didn’t get any needed loot from doing something I at least got some sort of power.
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75% of the affix week in this rotation are literally free with basic game mechanic awareness, FWIW.
We have never seen a more free season cycle
It requires more logistics and does not need said gear. The former should never be a benchmark for comparing the two for a reward, as the lockout of Mythic raiding is often the only thing hard about it.
But even then, the gear level often needed for mythic raiding is roughly mid heroic. As in, the gear level to start your end game activity at a range where it bears any meaning comes from heroic raiding
For M+, the same comparison parallels by STARTING at whatever the highest ilvl gear exists. M+ being adaptive and scaling content will always mean that the real end game in that lane only ever means anything upon nearing ilvl max, in terms of a gear to hear comparison.
Logistics of groups aside, this means that the end game lane for M+ will always start relatively HIGHER than where Mythic raiding starts, by virtue of comparing a scaling system to a static system, and thus rewards should mirror that. Likewise, a static path of content should reward a static path of progression (this is what raiding did until DF) and a scaling path of content should reward a scaling path of progression (M+ does).
In both lanes, your group is only as strong as your weakest links, but the difficulty of the CONTENT does not change relative to players, but to kits.
Even by this metric, raiding is far far more likely to cover a wider kit at any given comp than any M+ group, though M+ is often designed around it in mind, whereas raids often are not.
That’s not to say that M+ is hard, just that the prestige of Mythic raiding is largely an illusion outside of the first handful of races, and if Mythic raiding opened up a 10/15/20 man lockout style, which is far far easier to balance around relative to scaling per person, we would begin to see mythic raids drop faster…which is why Blizz has been so resistant to go back to the way things were on this front.
If we focus on the CONTENT, which should be what drives rewards, then in no world should mythic raiding ever be rewarding more ilvl outside of the areas it spikes for end wing bosses.
Content shouldn’t be rewarding players based off whether the players in their group suck, but should be rewarding players relative to the achievement of doing said content. Anyone on the “mythic raiding gets dibs” train fails to realize that. Or rather, when you don’t award gear accordingly, you devalue the meaning of gear.
In M+, higher gear until cap let’s you get closer to STARTING the content
In raid, higher gear let’s you NERF the content inch by inch.
As long as there exists a gear disparity between what mythic raid offers and M+ offers, M+ will always be the content that’s more fitting for such rewards, whether they get doled out there or not.
Though the best way to address the carrot on the stick issue would be to just normalize gear to the content tier, much like pvp gear is doing now, and to offer recolors and better cosmetics for higher difficulty content.
For example, if the max ilvl capped out as of full heroic ilvl, then neither system needs to change. M+ will still truly start at that threshold, but now Mythic raiding will as well.
Only mythic raiding would stop growing easier each week while M+ pushes up.
It wouldn’t invalidate raiding, but it would make it to where it’s not hte only option. If that results in everyone abandoning raiding, then it’s just the less popular option.
So, using this logic, would you agree World content players should get infinite scaling on WQs that also provide the best gear in the game since, by definition, anything with infinite scaling will eventually be more difficult than any static difficulty?
The irony is that Court of Stars and Halls of Valor were fan favorite dungeons, and often two of the most popular relative to their respective eras
The thing about fan favorites is that they, when games go on long enough to become legacy era games, fan favorites often represent and mirror the content that had the best flow and/or challenge; both of these dungeons hold up to time quite well.
Now it is absolutely fair to hate them, but that also means you’re illustrating what makes them great; they evoke a strong response. Lukewarm responses are the items in game dev that you want to avoid.
Which is why almost nobody remembers SMB for much beyond being free and people are already bored of it.
TLDR, careful what you wish for, because the grass is rarely greener
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Mythic raiding is harder, requires far more people, and the loot is on a weekly lockout. Just look and see how many guilds have completed the mythic raid fully and you’ll understand that it’s much more difficult than a +20.
Mythic raid gear should be better because the content is more difficult.
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agrorwal. no, because there isn’t infinite scaling on wqs so why bring it up bro.
why are we playing some what ifs.
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yea? who says raiding is more difficult? you?
based on what? how you feel? what you think is difficult?
Because the idea that something will always be more difficult due to infinite scaling is stupid in and of itself. It’s obvious, and built into the definition of infinite scaling.
The highest keys with rewards is where the comparison should be, which right now is a +20. Discussing anything beyond that is fairly pointless.
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It’s an irrelevant point man, m+ has infinite scaling as we speak. don’t talk about wqs. it’s exhausting doing this like running around stuff
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While I respect your opinion, it’s still just that. M+ is my primary fun in the game, sure I’m not pushing 20’s and I’m not nearly one of the best players in the game but it’s fun to see myself improve and do higher keys each week. I’m not sure what’s so “unfun” about M+, it’s really just what you make of it. If it’s anti-fun just don’t do it, do the stuff you find fun.
Based on how many guilds have fully cleared mythic raid vs how many people have cleared Mythic + 20.
I personally like the mix of older dungeons in the season to mix things up from a stagnant pool of dungeons for 2 years each xpac.
What I don’t like is the lame af affixes we deal with. You can’t convince me that they couldn’t come up with something that was more challenge and less annoyance in an affix. I admit, it’s a fine line between the two. Sure they tried to spice it up with storming… which means even less melee wanted for dungeons. I dunno, maybe I’m just sour to the lack of innovation in that area, but it just seems like I want to run keys 1 week a month because of annoying affix combos.
Please. The fact that Blizzard hasn’t done this yet is the single most annoying thing about M+.
And yeah the Seasonal affix is boring and also a bit unfun. A flat 5% increase to all mob HP for an uncontrollable buff that can easily be cleared by accident or by people doing it too early. Great…
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