I feel as though disregarding balance entirely because ‘everything is clearable’ is not a great attitude. Obviously focusing too much on balance isn’t healthy either, but it isn’t worth completely ignoring it.
It does appear as though certain specs are in a significantly bad place that probably should be addressed.
I don’t think the spec exists that just can’t do the 4-5k dps needed to comfortably time a 15. Keys are failed because of missed mechanics. It won’t matter how meta your comp is if your group isn’t doing them correctly.
“Being able to clear” isn’t the bar we should consider for sufficiently balanced. Being in a close enough position that you don’t feel bad about the class you enjoy should be the bar.
If other specs literally double your effectiveness, that’s a pretty awful feeling and the classes in that position should probably get small buffs to gradually tune them up so they’re at least CLOSE.
Are you saying the best Outlaw player can do 100% more dps than the best Enhancement player and also against its own spec subtlety ?
Sounds like skill issue huh Watcher 
Mechanics and utility matter on the margins. But in the end what makes the run easier is just flat out over gearing it and that’s not applying more mechanics or utility, it’s more DPS.
If your going to get someone that’s doing 50% of their specs potential would you want someone doing %50 of 10k or 50% of 5k?
What exactly is the point of this topic?
this right here dapler your the problem i don’t care it’s depressing to people to constantly sit as garbage to others and yes the keys are way easier cause taking specs over others it’s just sad they can’t do the job they are hired for and the fact ion thinks it’s okay is even worse. lets be real here everyone knows being subpar irl gets you nowhere so ya. dumbest thing i ever heard.
But he said “five gorillas could do a +15 of it.” Gorilla’s aren’t tanks or healers.
ain’t it obvious no need for explanations it’s right in your face.
We’ll probably never be in a key where a player is doing 10k overall. Pugs just don’t pull that way. If you want to build your group based on what those players are doing, that’s your right, but it won’t make any difference in the end.
In a similarly skilled group in a 15, no one is going to double your dps. That just doesn’t happen. If it does, you died…a lot.
Some of them are lol.
Then how do you explain the ‘highest dps run for a surv hunter’ being less than half the ‘highest dps run from an outlaw rogue’?
But even discounting the specific value… if I were a DPS player, and I was doing everything as right as I could, and the other DPS were 30-40% higher. Or even 25% higher across multiple runs… it would be demotivating. I would feel as though I was holding my team back by playing what I enjoy. Regardless of whether we’re ‘successfully able to complete content’.
And that’s not healthy game design.
You’ll never be in a group that pulls that way. What difference does it make? A survival hunter is not going to have their dps doubled by an equally skilled player in a pug 15.
Yes, me and a couple friends did a clear of it as an all warrior party, literally a team of 5 gorillas chested a 15 halls without a healer.
That’s a fine assertion, but the data is showing it’s more than possible. That’s a list the top performance for every spec.
The extreme differences fall off fairly quickly but we’re still looking at 20 to 40 percent drops offs and that’s a lot. Especially considering that by it’s very nature the M+ timer is a DPS check.
It’s all about how quickly you can do X amount of damage and some specs doing 20-40% less DPS matters a lot.
Of course it’s possible, if you’re pulling entire wings like they do. When was the last pug you were in that pulled that way on purpose?
That +15 keys are a joke right now at current iLvl and you can complete them with any class combination as long as people know what they’re doing?
It’s not about if it can be done. It’s about spec balance in terms of DPS output and that matters.
One spec doing 20% less damage then a direct replacement spec is about twice the penalty to a group as not having lust/hero.
And it’s great that you think 15’s are trivial, grats to you. Always someone that needs to make the thread about how good they are.
But this matters even more at the lofty levels you play at. Unless you’re timing your 20’s with a bunch of cats, subtlety rogues and enhancement shamans. Do I need to look at your IO to see what DPS specs you’re timing those keys with? Are can I go with what this data would indicate?
You’re going to be disappointed if you think the outlaw rogue you invite to your key is going to do 10k dps. He’ll do the same 4-5k as everyone else when the pulls are being made one at a time. Those big swings in dps don’t exist in that scenario.