M+ Class Balance (Feb '24)

[Bleish-kiljaeden]

@Zirathiel-elune

In reality, the vast majority of people who give a damn about this have absolutely no reason to.

Who are you to judge someone’s reason for caring? Do you shame the people who care about who wins the Superbowl or the FIFA World Cup?

@Synshâ-stormrage

What you’re asking for is them to balance ‘optimal’ rather than ‘viable.’ Which is literally impossible so long as the specs play differently. As I said above, it sounds like there is only one solution for you to be happy. Make all the specs play identically, with identical utility, and identical defensives.

I asked for more balance changes, not perfect balance. Maybe you didn’t see my other posts, but I keep saying “viable” is not balance. I’ll make a new example for you.

Let’s say game is tuned so that a DPS spec needs 100k DPS for +20 keys (at whatever gear level you’re supposed to be able to do a +20). Spec A can do 80k DPS. Spec B does 150k DPS (and for the sake of simplicity, they are identical in every other way). Clearly there is massive imbalance, and Spec A is not viable (at least not a group full of Spec A; they could get carried by Spec B). Or they could grind lower content (for FAR longer than Spec B, since B can do it undergeared) until they have overgeared enough to do 100k DPS.

Now let’s be a little tricky, and instead of buffing Spec A, nerf dungeons so that you only need 75k DPS. Now spec A is viable. But the balance is still horrible.

Even if you don’t use damage meters, anyone who tries playing both specs will feel the difference with how long it takes to kill things. Anyone playing Spec A will see enemy health bars evaporate when Spec B presses their damage buttons. The same happens in lower difficulties when one player is massively overgeared.

Realistically, many people do use damage meters, and don’t have fun when they play well yet remain at the bottom. It takes a lot of utility/survivability to overlook that, and even then many people would prefer to be able to give those up for S-Tier damage (on the spec they enjoy playing).

So, many people will choose Spec B from their own experience, and others will choose Spec B because a guide said so. They don’t want Spec A in their group when Spec B is available (unless there is a big gear or rating difference). Even if Spec A forms their own group, people will be less inclined to join, just like joining a group with an undergeared group leader. Doesn’t matter if it’s a +20 or a +2. Why?

• people value their time or score and want to get it done faster
• people want to +2 or +3 the key
• people want to have as much margin for error as possible (how many more keys fail when Spec A is brought?)
• people don’t want to carry someone who made the choice to be a burden
• people are lazy and want Spec B to carry them

The harder it is to get groups, the harder it is to get gear and the less time you get to have fun doing content (and as mentioned earlier, the content tends to be less fun when your teammates destroy you on the damage met). More people switch to Spec B, making the competition to get groups even tougher. This self-feeding cycle gets more and more frustrating the longer Spec A goes without buffs.

But… viable

Is current balance at 80 vs 150? It’s more like 125 vs 150 (and average specs are like 135), but the gap widens when the pulls don’t suit the worse spec’s damage profile. Sometimes you think it’s not that bad, until you realize a skill difference is closing the gap. Better balance is needed.

[Zirathiel-elune]

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Who are you to judge someone’s reason for caring?

It’s my own conclusion. I never asked you or anybody else to like it.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Maybe you didn’t see my other posts, but I keep saying “viable” is not balance.

Viability is an end result of balancing. I’ve already said this.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

I’ll make a new example for you.

Your example is pretty terrible. You’re trying to paint a picture in a vacuum and draw conclusions against actual gameplay.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Is current balance at 80 vs 150? It’s more like 125 vs 150 (and average specs are like 135), but the gap widens when the pulls don’t suit the worse spec’s damage profile. Sometimes you think it’s not that bad, until you realize a skill difference is closing the gap. Better balance is needed.

What you’re asking for is balancing towards the optimal end of the scale. Doing this is difficult without homogenization, as I’ve said before.

You’re walking around holding a solution trying to find a problem to shove it into.

[Bleish-kiljaeden]

@Zirathiel-elune

Viability is an end result of balancing. I’ve already said this.

My example showed viability being achieved without balancing. It could have been achieved with balancing, but the point is that viability is not proof that specs are anywhere close to balanced, which is what your statement implies.

@Zirathiel-elune

What you’re asking for is balancing towards the optimal end of the scale. Doing this is difficult without homogenization, as I’ve said before.

It will never be perfect, but it can easily be better with some tuning if we can agree on why some specs are overpowered or underpowered. This thread is supposed to be a discussion to that end. You saying “BaLAncE iS HArD” is not helpful.

[Zirathiel-elune]

@Bleish-kiljaeden

My example showed viability being achieved without balancing. It could have been achieved with balancing, but the point is that viability is not proof that specs are anywhere close to balanced

Viability being an end result of balancing means it is a potential goal throughout the process of balancing. Balancing is not the same as balanced.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

It will never be perfect, but it can easily be better with some tuning if we can agree on why some specs are overpowered or underpowered

Which changes from season to season based on:

-What new tier sets do to given specs
-What changes specs/classes receive within given patches
-What the content itself establishes as desirable from x role

How high does the threshold need to go for balancing for your satisfaction? Viability has already been achieved up to the technical end point of M+ tiers that are relevant to the majority of the playerbase, and balancing the optimal end either requires simplification of the content or homogenization of different specs’/classes’ kits.

For example, why do you think Vengeance DH is seen as powerful and optimal for this season of M+? How would you go about changing other tanks to make them similarly valuable without grossly overcompensating in some other way? What happens if you nerf what makes Vengeance good right now with no other meaningful (re: simply turning damage knobs on the tanks is not enough) changes past that?

@Bleish-kiljaeden

This thread is supposed to be a discussion to that end. You saying “BaLAncE iS HArD” is not helpful.

No, I’m simply stating the truth. The stupid examples you keep trying to set forth are perfect examples in a vacuum that don’t hold up to the reality of intended gameplay and damage profile differences. Every spec cannot and should not functionally be the same. That’s how you create a dull game.

[Nui-ursin]

Yea, also buff monks.

Idk if they are good or bad in the current meta.

Just always buff monks

[Bleish-kiljaeden]

@Zirathiel-elune

Which changes from season to season based on:

So you would stop balancing this season because the balance will slightly change next season?

@Zirathiel-elune

How high does the threshold need to go for balancing for your satisfaction?

Basically until I can not confidently conclude that one spec is better than another. Why settle for less?

@Zirathiel-elune

For example, why do you think Vengeance DH is seen as powerful and optimal for this season of M+? How would you go about changing other tanks to make them similarly valuable without grossly overcompensating in some other way? What happens if you nerf what makes Vengeance good right now with no other meaningful (re: simply turning damage knobs on the tanks is not enough) changes past that?

I don’t know why they’re OP (discussion amongst high level tank players would help). I would definitely nerf DH over buffing other tanks to its current level (but some of the other tanks probably do need buffs). The sigil spam is what stands out the most; my gut reaction is increase cooldowns or remove the 2 sigil charges talent and the cooldown reduction talent. Maybe they can keep it if you take away the aoe stun, or make silence and grip a choice node. I think they do too much damage (nerf spirit bomb and/or sigil of flame), not sure if they’re too tanky.

[Zirathiel-elune]

@Bleish-kiljaeden

So you would stop balancing this season because the balance will slightly change next season?

Did I say that?

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Basically until I can not confidently conclude that one spec is better than another

So never, then.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Why settle for less?

It’s not about settling for less, it’s about effort vs impact vs side consequences.

Making every single spec equally balanced in all content requires a notable degree of homogenization. Homogenization of damage profiles, homogenization of utility kits, etc.

There’s a reason imbalance exists, and not all imbalance in design is a net negative. Imbalance is why given specs and classes play differently from each other and bring different tools.

Viability is a much more reasonable target than complete balancing at the top end.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

I don’t know why they’re OP (discussion amongst high level tank players would help). I would definitely nerf DH over buffing other tanks to its current level (but some of the other tanks probably do need buffs). The sigil spam is what stands out the most; my gut reaction is increase cooldowns or remove the 2 sigil charges talent and the cooldown reduction talent. Maybe they can keep it if you take away the aoe stun, or make silence and grip a choice node. I think they do too much damage (nerf spirit bomb and/or sigil of flame), not sure if they’re too tanky.

It begs the question, though. What happens when you nerf Vengeance? Another meta forms, another tank becomes the go-to pick, and the cycle continues.

Vengeance right now, to me, represents a degree of control over mob behavior in M+ that other tanks should be able to somewhat similarly exert. I think it’s a good example of where other tanks should be, as opposed to it being something that needs to be nerfed.

Now, this all assumes the player at the wheel is using the kit optimally. That’s the other part of this issue- designing for viability means designing for wider access.

[Bleish-kiljaeden]

@Zirathiel-elune

Making every single spec equally balanced in all content requires a notable degree of homogenization. Homogenization of damage profiles, homogenization of utility kits, etc.

Dungeons have different pull sizes; you can have damage profiles be different and still average out to be equal. Yes, you can’t have specs do equal damage while one has better utility, but I’d rather utility be a tradeoff for damage than all utility be equal. (this can be done with talents; I’m not against buffing/adding utility to the weaker specs)

@Zirathiel-elune

It begs the question, though. What happens when you nerf Vengeance? Another meta forms, another tank becomes the go-to pick, and the cycle continues.

As long as you don’t over-nerf Vengeance such that it becomes the worst tank, the balance will be better than it currently is. A new tank becoming meta is not a problem; you nerf that one too, or if you think it’s in a good spot you buff the other tanks at that point.

@Zirathiel-elune

Vengeance right now, to me, represents a degree of control over mob behavior in M+ that other tanks should be able to somewhat similarly exert. I think it’s a good example of where other tanks should be, as opposed to it being something that needs to be nerfed.

Well that’s certainly opinion; I don’t like that playstyle so I imagine tanking in general would become less popular, which makes the game worse for everyone. It would be more of a rework thing. The play would be still to nerf Vengeance, until the other tanks are ready, then revert the nerfs.

Without adding new abilities to classes, you’d have to do things like add a charge to Warrior’s Disrupting Shout, make Intimidating Shout fear in place baseline, and/or add a mini-knockback or knockup to the aoe portion of Shield Charge.

[Akapally-barthilas]

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Ret

What is with non ret players? Every buff ends up with people crying until we get nerfed. Are we the ugly step class or something that no one likes?

[Turalyonn-dalaran]

@Akapally-barthilas

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Ret

What is with non ret players? Every buff ends up with people crying until we get nerfed. Are we the ugly step class or something that no one likes?

Lol. You must be new to the game to ask that.

[Akapally-barthilas]

Nha I’ve just had enough, even when I didn’t play paladin it was always the same. Same issue with hunters and feral druids being the laughing stock of the game.

[Lahlania-farstriders]

Right now, I think, Paladins in general, but specifically Ret Paladins are getting a lot of attention because they are, by far, the most popular dps class in both Mythic+ and Raid content (source: https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/mythic-plus/20/all-dungeons/this-week - sorted by popularity in raid and mythic+).

They have excellent damage, survivability, healing, and utility. Right now, they shine in all PVE content, so of course they are going to get trashed on a little. It’s the natural inclination of folks whose preferred spec is down at the bottom.

[Zirathiel-elune]

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Dungeons have different pull sizes; you can have damage profiles be different and still average out to be equal.

No, you can’t. It’s a nice idea but it just doesn’t work that way.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Yes, you can’t have specs do equal damage while one has better utility, but I’d rather utility be a tradeoff for damage than all utility be equal. (this can be done with talents; I’m not against buffing/adding utility to the weaker specs)

Then there’s inherently imbalance there already. All utility is not made equal.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

As long as you don’t over-nerf Vengeance such that it becomes the worst tank, the balance will be better than it currently is.

There are better ways to achieve this.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Well that’s certainly opinion; I don’t like that playstyle so I imagine tanking in general would become less popular, which makes the game worse for everyone

I didn’t say Vengeance’s playstyle should exist for every spec. I’m saying Vengeance’s ability to control mobs as well as it currently does/somewhat similarly should be explored for other tanks.

@Bleish-kiljaeden

Without adding new abilities to classes, you’d have to do things like add a charge to Warrior’s Disrupting Shout, make Intimidating Shout fear in place baseline, and/or add a mini-knockback or knockup to the aoe portion of Shield Charge.

Warriors already have some aspects of this in their kit as a tank, it’s just locked behind longer cooldowns, reduced effect for AoE CC, or would be replacing existing abilities with minimal to no function as they are. You wouldn’t need to really add extra buttons to most tanks for this to be doable. Except maybe Guardian, but Guardian is just conceptually borked and has been for a bit since it lacks a distinct identity that isn’t “Protection Warrior but bear” aside from small odds and ends in its kit.

[Turalyonn-dalaran]

@Lahlania-farstriders

Right now, I think, Paladins in general, but specifically Ret Paladins are getting a lot of attention because they are, by far, the most popular dps class in both Mythic+ and Raid content sorted by popularity in raid and mythic+).

They have excellent damage, survivability, healing, and utility. Right now, they shine in all PVE content, so of course they are going to get trashed on a little. It’s the natural inclination of folks whose preferred spec is down at the bottom.

You must be some kind of child prodigy.

[Diablognomis-staghelm]

@Snozdotz-area-52

All classes are viable in keys that the majority of players can do.

"Everyone’s viable, but we’re taking the DH. Try the next group, I’m sure they’ll let you see how viable you are. "

Next Group:
"Everyone’s viable, but we’re taking the DH. Try the next group, I’m sure they’ll let you see how viable you are. "

That it can be done does not make it balanced. And no one likes being the carry. It’s a very bad experience for everyone that has a favorite spec that’s not an anointed one.

[Snozdotz-area-52]

@Diablognomis-staghelm

Everyone’s viable, but we’re taking the DH. Try the next group, I’m sure they’ll let you see how viable you are. "

Next Group:
"Everyone’s viable, but we’re taking the DH. Try the next group, I’m sure they’ll let you see how viable you are. "

That it can be done does not make it balanced. And no one likes being the carry. It’s a very bad experience for everyone that has a favorite spec that’s not an anointed one.

Make your own group

If you’re viable that doesn’t mean you’re a carry.

Aff is one of the worst mplus specs in the game and I’m still able to do good damage and not be a carry.

[Diablognomis-staghelm]

@Snozdotz-area-52

Make your own group

Naw,
Just play a lot less now.

Switched mains to this toon because even though it has the same level gear it does 50-100k more DPS than the toon I want to play and know better.

The game is just worse for it.

And why should only some specs be burdened with having to run their own keys?

@Snozdotz-area-52

Aff is one of the worst mplus specs in the game and I’m still able to do good damage and not be a carry.

In all three runs you have as affliction?

[Darthauz-wyrmrest-accord]

@Kiofea-illidan

I’m pumping in my groups just fine, though I stick between the 18 and 20 range.

These would be 14-16 any other season.

[Snozdotz-area-52]

@Diablognomis-staghelm

Naw,
Just play a lot less now.

That’s your choice.

@Diablognomis-staghelm

Switched mains to this toon because even though it has the same level gear it does 50-100k more DPS than the toon I want to play and know better.

If you’re outperforming your old main by 50-100k you weren’t playing your old main very well.

@Diablognomis-staghelm

And why should only some specs be burdened with having to run their own keys?

Dps are a dime a dozen. Every dps spec can struggle to get in keys.

@Diablognomis-staghelm

In all three runs you have as affliction?

Because only playing affliction in three keys invalidates my point in not being a carry?

I’m set up for Aff for tindral prog.

First boss in EB
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1176916449424580669/1211465515457974272/WoWScrnShot_022524_191015.jpg?ex=65ee4c2e&is=65dbd72e&hm=84437a78ab08a63aa9dbf3da5202878c2e6654b29ac71185f93e57a491b9ddd3&

Overall for a bricked 18 EB where the tank was pulling one pack at a time.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1176916449424580669/1211465542024564797/WoWScrnShot_022524_190948.jpg?ex=65ee4c35&is=65dbd735&hm=8876c4ecb936756ff490d8c4023489f1842765b397c99dce431320f21b99f910&

Aff def a carry…

Granted I was being buffed by an aug but youre acting like every spec thats not meta is trash

[Fairlight-emerald-dream]

That dps looks impressive to me. Also, digging the new look