I generally like your posts but you aren’t even close to needing to worry about meta atm. Nor understand the limitations of Resto shamans. That is my only point.
I understand an equally geared and well played Resto Druid is better, it just isn’t necessary for the majority of players. Emulate the top players when you are doing top player content.
And for the record, I never said shaman was the best healer. I stated that they have excellent utility, which they absolutely do. I can’t help that you took my post, changed the narrative and moved to strike that down.
I have done everything in this game and can tell you that healing is one of the tougher things to do. If it’s not, then you aren’t doing high enough keys are pushing hard enough.
There really just isn’t logic to the last part. Obviously a good player will be good regardless, but that doesn’t mean comp and class doesn’t matter. It clearly does. Some healers work well with all types of comps, while some don’t.
You can build a group around a shaman to perform at a very high level. You can do this far all the healers, tanks, and even dps. For my disc, I love having a monk or pali tank and a boomi dps. Those classes/specs make my life easier.
In the end though, some specs just play well with… everything. That’s just one more reason druids work so well. They cover so many ‘needs’ as far as M+ goes. They bring a LOT to the table.
In the end though, your opinion doesn’t really matter. Just look at the statistics. IF another healer was as good as druids, there would be just as many… That’s how this game works. The issue though is that druids are way far ahead of everything else.
For example… I leveled a druid 3 weeks ago. That druid is already almost 1700. Despite only being 430 equipped, it is as efficient healer as my disc is, especially out Grievous. While my priest still has higher output, it’s not hard to see the druid passing my priest in short time. Everything is just… better on the druid. Simple as that.
You know why Resto Druids are meta? They became meta when Prot Warriors took over the mantle as the main tank from BDKs. Because…BDKs brought the brez. Season 1 was all BDK and Disc because disc had the best damage output and BDKs brought the brez. People aren’t going into high tyrannical keys without brez. Especially in pugs, where I live.
This is the same argument people began using to say Outlaw wasn’t brought because they had the best damage per run in M+ but because they had stuns. High level, sure. Mid level and lower? Absolutely not. Resto Druids have hit the same exact over saturation point rogues have. So many terrible ones that it is a good chance you get a bad one any given run.
To your last point, if other healers had brez you would see much more diversity.
And to the point that healers are that hard, I would have agreed with you prior to this expansion. Seen way too many boss fights this season and last and even trash where the healer died and I kept people up with spirit mend.
Edit: Roots? Useless, mage has poly. Makes it not unique. There is nothing Druids bring that no other class has. In fact, RoP separates so many Tides from their packs or you can taunt certain mobs to not need Roots/Poly.
All disc S1? No. You can take 2 seconds and look that up. Resto was, just like legion, the best healer. Half the healers in the top 20 from S1 were druids…
I only pug bud. I make all my own groups.
Having a bres is as simple as being an engineer. Druid bres is nice, but covering for it isn’t tough.
Would do almost nothing. Covering a bres is easy.
This expansion has been more demanding of healers than any previous. That’s why healers… and tanks for that matter are in such high demand in groups. They suck to play and are the first to be blamed when something goes wrong.
Not that being a healer is sooooo much harder., but global for global healers have more going on than dps or tanks. That said, I think tanking is the toughest role at times.
As far as healers go, it’s the ONLY healing spec with a spammable CC.
You seriously just want to argue. I play both healers now. I’m speaking from more experience than you have. I’m telling you exactly as it is. But if you want to ignore what I’m saying, then just look at the statistics for proof. This discussion is asinine.
You take Resto Shamans and discount their utility because other roles (dps or tank) cover them but then you cry foul if the same logic applies to Druids.
If you live in a cave all you see is shadows.
You need to go back and read this thread because you’ve lost sight of the entire premise and only point I have made. Resto Shamans have excellent utility. Nothing you fabricate takes away from that. At no point did I ever say shamans were the best healer. I really expected more out of you.
I educated you that shamans had utility, you argued weakly that they don’t under the guise of other classes also have abilities and won’t refute the same claim I just asserted to Druids. Why is that?
How is this still going on? It’s not even relevant to the OPs topic. Druid has a better healing pattern / healing toolkit for M+, on top of that it has the most generally valuable utility across all dungeons, as well as short damage reduction cooldowns, and the highest GCD efficient damage out of all healers (Sunfire OP).
I think you’re missing what everyone is trying to say. Yes other classes have comparable/substitutable skills to resto druid utility. But none of the other healing class toolkits as a whole compares to RDruid.
Resto shaman’s are like disc priests, they are monumental in raids, and laughed at in competitive M+. Your friend may be the greatest healer alive… but he’ll perpetually under perform as he plays a spec that is just not as strong as others.
This is such a joke of a response man. There is a big difference with how that CC works for healers. When the healer has the CC, it frees up globals for the DPS to focus… DPS. When the healer can control the emissary, it’s huge because it’s way more efficient to the group. That’s why having that task for a healer is great as they likely have the most free globals depending on the pull.
Also, lets just looooook at the stuff. Aoe slow is covered by HOW many classes? How about stuns? How about kicks? All that utility you are talking about… how many specs have that. Literally every other class.
How many have vortex, soothe, spammable roots? Those are very unique traits. They are sadly very specific to druids, while stuns and slows are not.
What’s so dumb about this discussion is I’m saying other healers need help and you just want to argue that they are fine… when they clearly aren’t. I’m telling you first hand and you still want to argue. I just don’t get it.
Yes, you are living in a cave. A cave that ignores reality.
Educated? I played a sham to 2400. You? What have you done? Please tell me how you are educating me. Let me educate you. Go to raider io and tell me how good shamans are doing. The lie to yourself why they are nearly the bottom and come back with some lame excuse about meta or whatever else you want to blame.
Maybe learn what a strawman is. Yes, you clearly do have a reading disorder when I listed out exactly why they aren’t unique and their utility isn’t special.
I never said other healers are fine. I said Resto shamans have excellent utility. I never said they were better than Druids. I said they have utility. Like I said, go back and re read this.
You read this and then made some kind of interpretation on an ESL level and started defending a position no one took originally.
Let me make this easy for you since you don’t have a functioning brain. Go look at post #9 I made where I literally said, “No one takes any other healer than Druid because they are so good at everything.”
Yea, clearly tossing out childish insults will make you seem like a real adult!
This all got started because you want to double down and say the only thing shamans are missing is a bres when clearly that isn’t the case.
The fact you said…
Says enough. It’s not even close. That shaman isn’t bringing something that’s unique. Most… healers aren’t. That’s the issue. Druids have a lot to work with. They have since Legion as far as M+ is concerned… and have since forever as far as pvp goes.
If you seriously think shaman have such amazing utility, why oh why are they at the bottom? It’s not just an output thing. So what does that leave them?
The difference here is I’m doing it… and you’re just speculating.
…
Really? You are missing it man. It’s the fact they have so many abilities wrapped into a single class/spec. Then on top of all of that, they also can bring unique stuff that no other healer has.
Druids are dominating. A few small changes like giving healers bres won’t change a thing.
meh. if you just want to be a dick, then i’ll stop. there was a decent discussion back there, but you’re clearly lost.
Shaman is weak on utility because other classes have what they do.
Druid is strong on utility because…??? Same thing applies, correct? Other classes have what Druids do but it is wrapped up on one class. Wow! That’s like, exactly what I said about Shamans!!! Then YOU discounted that because…I still have no idea. You’re all over the place friend.
Between Shaman and Druid. Between. Big part of that. If you have a shaman AND a Druid in your group, you have 90% of the utility you need. Yes, I believe that.
I never said Druids were weak, I pointed out how strong they were. YOU took my point about their utility and with the zeal of a religious fanatic ASSUMED I was attacking Druids. Dumb man, real dumb.
If other healers had brez you would see MANY more. Know why? Cause there are people with pride that won’t reroll to an OP class or they played HPal for 12 years and still want to play it.
Seriously, go read this thread again.
You are arguing like a hypocrite and have different standards for your point vs my point.
And what exactly are you doing vs me speculating? I plugged my Unholy DK to almost 2100 io. You are playing the easiest role in M+? I don’t give anyone credit until they can tank past 2K. Give me a call when you do that.
Edit: I do think the player > the class. What kind of idiot doesn’t? How does that translate to Druid being bad? Go read post #9, it is insightful for you. Might be the missing link.
I run with a holy alot i dont have a problem it. I think its just when you have an option to take a meta healer it doesnt make sense not to.
All you can really do is make your own groups and make friends then run with your new friends. Instead of just leaving at the end of a dungeon add the people who werent awful.
How many specs bring stuns, slows, and kicks? Let me answer that for you. More then half.
Vs.
How many bring spammable CC that work on the tides, vortex, and soothe?
How many?
The difference is you have a healer that on some pulls is focusing on damage, while your dps is now focusing on utility. This is the exact issue I face as a disc. This is partially why disc was excelling the first season because the damage element could actually be covered by the priest. The net loss was much lower.
nothing even close to that, but think what you want.
no it’s because there are 3 classes that already bring a bres and it’s covered by engineering. Many of my top keys didn’t have a class with a bres. You know why? We don’t need it.
nah, you just avoid your arguments where I pointed out you were wrong and still want to argue. You offer no follow up and just move on to your next point.
You said disc was top for S1 when that is obviously not the case.
You said the player is what matters most… It would be nice if that was the case, but it isn’t, especially relative to this discussion. Take the same player and give them a druid and they will be better off. Simple as that. If we are all in agreement there, then we should look at the reasons why that is the case. Druids aren’t just amazing because of output, so that means it’s something else making them the best healer for M+ season after season.
So my opinion doesn’t matter if I don’t have a tank also over 2k? talk about moving goal posts.
I’m saying I’m actively doing it. I’m playing both a disc and resto druid now and it’s easy to see the massive difference between them. Since that is pretty core to the discussion here, I’m not speculating, but relaying what I’m seeing in game.
It’s relative. At the end of the day, you can’t overcome what your class doesn’t have. That’s why there are buffs and nerfs in this game. Some classes have to much while other have not enough.
I’d love to see holy priests and shamans get some buffs. I’d love to see the affixes designed with all the healers in mind. I’d love to see the dungeons designed with all classes in mind. It’s not that way though. The unique things that each spec/class used to bring isn’t.