this is very true if you know the mechanics and have gear depending on the mythic + lvl it will be pretty easy
In statistics they call it an estimator. While it may lack significance due to no estimate of error, it still is better than a best guess.
Why’d you delete your other post? I liked it.
You are wasting time trying to argue with players like this. They are closed off to any feedback from anyone else among the player base. They can only approach this subject from their point of view. Empathy isn’t a common quality among the GD forum regulars that defend the current state of the game.
I feel bad for a lot you defending M+ in this thread. You guys act like this is the only way to make dungeons difficult and to extend the content. It’s weird to me that don’t expect this same system in raiding, because according to their logic, if there ain’t a timer the content can’t be hard.
M+ was an AARPG system that was shoehorned into a MMO by the Diablo developers that were brought onto the team in WoD. I don’t mean to be a jerk towards these devs, but they don’t have a clue how a MMO ticks and what type of content and systems are good for MMOs.
Anyway, yall can defend M+ all you want, but when you start seeing the negative impact content like this has had on the overall player base maybe you will start coming around to the other side.
I don’t think a lot of people get that class and dungeon design have suffered a lot from this system, which effects everyone!
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Organized group content always has relatively low participation rates. Most people don’t raid N/H/M but that doesn’t mean everyone “hates” N/H/M raids, they just aren’t really interested or think it’s too much trouble or find it intimidating.
I have very few pet achievements, but I don’t hate pet battles. I just like other content better and there’s only so much time I have to play WoW.
Unless you think anyone without the keystone master achievement (or whichever one you’re tracking) hates M+, that data doesn’t really prove anything re: m+ hate.
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not getting gear at the end of the run feels awful. 5 people put time and effort all 5 should get an item in M+.
but I liked M+ when they where about cosmetics MoP and WoD more. Let the good gear come from raiding.
a lot of people dont wanna get gear in pve they want it in pvp so ive heard a lot of people say they dont like mythics …i mean the pve is boring with 5 abilities now imo also
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They seem to want PvP to be a PvE activity but against other players rather than dragons. Pruning makes it more stand and deliver your rotation and there’s a significant advantage to gearing through PvE for PvP.
The fun people who enjoyed doing mythic + during legion for its entertainment value have stopped doing it. Mythic+ dungeons are no longer intended to be done by those, they are for people who are hard focused on their io scores, thus more toxicity.
If the “challenge” suits you, good on you. But they have been made a much smaller part of the game for devs’ abandoning of many fans of the genre during legion.
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Personally I find M+ extremely stressful. I don’t really like it. I go when my friends ask me to but it’s always a super intense experience and I’m always relieved when it’s finally over. It feels like if you take one wrong step, make one wrong misclick, the group wipes, and that sort of stress really gets to me.
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Rofl having “stress” over a timer, that talks way more about personal issues that the content.
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But it isn’t.
The question should start with, what were heroics primarily used for originally. The simple answer would be to prepare someone for raiding. Heroics were that middle step between questing and normal raids, which were both more a function of leveling. Heroics were the first step for gearing up for raids.
So, where does that stand now as of 8.2?
Dungeons:
Normal - 370
Heroic - 385
Mythic - 400
Raid - Eternal Palace
LFR - 400
Normal - 415
Heroic - 430
Mythic - 445
A few items to note here. First, Heroics still equip you for the first tier of raid. Now that the first tier of raiding is LFR, that has remained the same. If you want to argue that Mythic is now Heroic, that’s fine, but Mythic +0 dungeons are NOT M+.
This all said though…
That has NOTHING to do with M+.
The relevance of gear in heroic dungeons has more todo with LFR AND benthic gear… as well as general world quests. Saying this is an issue of M+ makes no sense as you don’t have todo anything with M+ to prepare for normal raiding.
man… you can same I’m full of w/e you want, but your outlier experience is a moot point. The point of the dungeons for the vast majority of players was to get them gear to make them raid ready. Dungeons were NEVER end game content. If you spent a lot of time there and treated it as such, that’s on YOU.
This topic has NEVER been about the casual player. People here are trying to argue that M+ has taken something AWAY from casual players… it hasn’t. It literally does nothing for there gameplay. There is NO argument that holds up to that. If you are a causal player and you’re simply doing dungeons for fun (?), then none of this stuff matters to you. Why? Because none of this content affects your game play.
As I just said above this, LFR, benthic, and just general world quests have done more to trivialize heroic and normal dungeons then anything. M+ is 100% not necessary to raid and be successful.
BS. The dungeons are far more dynamic now then they ever were in the past. To say they are being designed for M+ is just ridiculous. The cadence of dungeons now is similar to how it’s been since wrath. Pull for Pull, mob for mob, you can easily see how the dungeons built now are inline with the same patterns they have always used.
But even if we entertain that argument, WHAT about the current design is BAD for this massive casual player base you want to allude to. GIVE me some example and we can discuss that.
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M+ made them worse because they are now designed around being ran for speed rather than being interesting content with replay value. There are no stratholme type dungeons where you explore wing by wing, its all linear trash clears with M+ in mind and with the addition of M+ it seems bliz is content in removing the token aspect to keep people out of regular heroics and farming the M+ mode instead.
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Dungeon design has been linear since TBC.
You cant say dungeon layout has been significantly changed due to mythic+ when its been the same design for every single expansion dungeon.
Legion and BfA, with Kara and Mecha, are the only to expansions to even come close to a vanilla style dungeon.
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Designed for speed? The dungeons have been using the same basic formula since… forever. Similar boss count. Similar mob count. Similar run times.
Linear dungeons has been the predominant design style since the beginning. Deadmines, Ragefire Chasm, Wailing Caverns, etc. If you go through the full list of dungeons, linear is the predominant style of play. Just look at wrath. 16 dungeons in total and almost everyone of them is linear. Even the ones that aren’t still have mostly linear progression.
As of now, we have AD and FH that aren’t strictly linear. Motherlode, while linear, has a ton of different paths. WC is semi-linear, though there is always a clear linear route. Not saying this is enough, but in terms of the amount, this… is the norm.
All that aside though, M+ doesn’t need a linear design to function or to be good. So saying that is causing the dungeon design to be more linear doesn’t make sense. If anything, M+ would be far more exciting IF dungeons were less linear. This would make for far more creative pulls. When some of the teams did AD recently, neither of them chose the same path. I’m all for making dungeons being dynamic. This isn’t a fault of M+.
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It absolutely is the best thing they’ve added in years.
It revitalized 5-man content and gave us a challenging progression path. For people like me it went from “logging on only on raid nights” to “active all the time looking for keys to push”.
That’s why I find dungeons like Freehold refreshing. We need more like it! I love how we change our routes and kill order depending on what emissary is placed where and timer left on lust for example.
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M+ is a toxic blight upon this game. It ruins dungeon design and breeds horrible behaviour. I will do my utmost to see it destroyed and removed from the game.
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At least it won’t exist in Classic.
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The only hate I have for M+ is the fact the community gates it. The same community that cries if blizzard gates content. It alsi SHOULD NOT be an e-sport
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I hate certain affixes. I mean Bolstering is literally just an anti-fun mechanic. Teeming is just more trash because BFA really needed more trash in dungeons, and Beguiling is also just anti-fun.
M+ at its core is very, very good. But certain affixes make it a boring slog fest that has next to 0 enjoyment even when in a premade in disc.
yeah youre probably right. dungeons have been mostly bad for a long time with the occasional gem in between. id really like them to be more interesting and unique and maybe im placing the blame in the wrong place with mythic+ and its more design apathy than anything else.