you quoted the 3 oldest expansions and completely disregarded the following 2 for the sake of making a bad argument. they made progress by making heroics give tokens that coulde ventually lead to gear upgrades and then they removed said progress for the sake of… i dont know what. Sure, i didnt re-run burning crusade heroics either, but I ran the **** out of them during MoP. every day.
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Mythic+ has its place in the game. I would like to see them do more with it without having to meet the timer.
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The thing is we took him. He did really good for his messed up gear. I gave him four gems for his gear(402). His single was 21k and most aoe was 54k. That to me is alright. Not great still it says it trying.
The issue with M+ started long before. In Wrath you had the go go go people. They weren’t tanks nor healers, they were dps and demanded that the dungeons be run at their pace regardless of the rest of the group. Then in early Cat they made a number of design mistakes with dungeons and explained it away as “people don’t want hard dungeons”, which is where the failure really started imho.
Dungeons were already becoming just linear, some existed, but after that it became the norm. It also became the norm for AoE tanking and ignoring the rest of the group and their abilities. The instances were so easy that no one died so the only challenge people saw was running them as fast as they could. WoW became an arcade game and not the DnD based MMO that had made it popular.
By the time M+ came around people were already running dungeons like that. Those of that already hated what dungeons had become mostly stopped running them, hoping design would go back to the old dungeon crawls with challenges and deaths. Blizzard seemed to support that mentality of how dungeons are supposed to be run when they made M+ such a core part of the game.
That’s why I hate M+.
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what you talking about man m+ is the best welfare epic gearing system wow has ever had.
you can get mythic raid level gear 440+ without stepping in a mythic raid.
m+ is a welfare gearing system.
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The gear is secondary to coax you into running the content. Their primary goal is to have people running the same content over and over to save development costs.
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What design mistakes? Just curious, because I loved the pre-nerf cata dungeons. And I say this as someone who exclusively pugged them through LFD as a tank. I loved the challenge of leading a group through trash packs that truly hit back and figuring out how to nullify their mechanics using CC, interrupts, and stuns.
Heck most of those dungeons were built on rock/paper/scissors style mechanics. Do this and you win. Do this and you lose. Loved it.
It was only when the LFD system paired you with 3 warrior DPS that I was scratching my head…
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We play different games then. I need my dps players to interrupt the right spells, not pull extra packs, manage their aggro, know how to deal with each Emissary immediately (including when to LOS and where to LOS the voids), when to lust so I don’t have to ask, where to do the best stealth skips, to watch their own health and use defensives if the healer is struggling…
I think your criticism may have applied to Legion, but BfA has upped the ante for dps in a big big way, and that’s very good.
My guess is that you haven’t hit the top of M+ yet - there comes a time you can’t just AoE without thinking and beat the timer.
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The mistakes weren’t the dungeons, it was that they nerfed tank threat and healer mana at a time when the demographics were changing due to LFD. You couldn’t rely on dps to pick up the slack in an LFD environment.
Pretty much, now its just being designed to promote their MDI.
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They should remove the whole timing portion of it, then people wouldn’t nerd rage so much when they get denied their end of the week loot after some wipes. M+ already has a higher chance to wf tf than other content, and also drops heroic ilvl gear, that should be incentive enough to do it there.
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says who? honest question. Why can’t they have a longer life in the same way a BG does or any other content in the game.
What’s silly about it? I love it. I like that there is actually PVE content that scales with ability/gear. That is the primary reason I enjoy PVP of PVE the majority of the time.
Leveling through BFA was no different the Wrath or Cata. BC def took awhile, but all expansions outside of BC and Vanilla, it’s all been the same. Leveling through MOP and WOD could actually be done in a few hours.
So for the majority of the life of the game, it really hasn’t been slow. I think the last time heroics had that life was back in BC, but even then, that was more an issue of the design the difficulty. If we had a LFG in BC, gearing would have been exponentially easier. As it was, making groups took a great deal of time. First, finding everyone, then traveling there… etc. So even with a good group or friends, it was still a fairly large time sync.
My replay was to this comment.
"I like content that requires analysis, thought and planning "
To say there isn’t analysis, throught… and planning in M+ is just absurd. The amount of planning that goes into high keys is ridiculous. So much so that there are addons and sites dedicated to it. Something of which we really never saw at this scale before.
I’m not. You’re failing to grasp something here… The average user should be unaffected by M+. The experience they have had hasn’t changed. Normal and heroic dungeons still exist and are far more accessible than they were in the past.
They aren’t brainless, they just don’t have a long life and are quickly out geared. That has nothing to do with M+… That is an issue of the game design and ALL the content. So if the grievance that players are out gearing heroics to quickly, what does that have to do with M+? Nothing.
Huh? I just didn’t type them all out. Token’s were irrelevant for a large chunk of players.
Of course your viewpoint and how it effects your game play is all that matters here. 
I thought it has been established that catering the game to a very small minority of hardcore players was bad for business right?
M+ segregates the player base and has made dungeons just boring AOE trash pack hallways.
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M+ is the most fun thing that I’ve done in wow…ever.
It gives you all the thrills of mythic raiding in a far more accessible venue. Getting a group of 5 people together and grinding keys is just about the best thing I can think of in game right now.
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So?
Raids also segregate the player base. So does rated pvp.
So what?
Then you’re either doing keys your group out gears, or you’re that guy who doesn’t stun/interrupt/disorient key abilities.
It’s not just running mobs through an AOE blender. Tons of cc happens in m+, but it happens quickly and without spending 2 minutes before each pull marking sheep targets.
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Honestly, the majority of M+ hate comes from people who can’t get into groups because of people using Raider IO and basing how the invite people through those scores.
I’m completely fine with it, as random mythic+ is not my thing. I’d rather do it with friends or guildies.
These people could easily just make friends and group with them but apparently would rather complain about how random people create and maintain their own groups.
I love mythic+ It’s like raids but without the difficulty of having to manage and get loads of players, getting IO score up has been a good goal for me to keep playing
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maybe so, but heroic dungeons are irrelevant for an even larger chunk of them now.
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I’m one of those people that doesn’t really like M+.
I have no idea if I’m in a minority or a majority. Talking with people in the game, it seems to be a pretty even split of “I don’t like them, so don’t do them”, “I don’t like them, but feel forced to do them”, “they are alright, but I don’t do them a ton”, and “I freaking love them, spam them all the time”.
Then you go to places like reddit, where the bubble opinion seems to be that 10’s are super easy, people spam them all the time, and if you don’t like them you are downvoted into oblivion.
Which is interesting, because per Ion AMA mid way through season 1, he said the majority of people that do M+ only do one a week and that’s it.
You check webpages that track achievements and it shows in the entirety of the expansion, so far, only 36% of people have done a key in every dungeon. So in one year, the majority hasn’t done a key every dungeon.
The number of people that completed a 10 on time in every dungeon was like 6% season 1, 11.5% season 2, and season 3 is currently 3%. Those certainly wouldn’t be numbers to suggest it’s a huge hit. That 10’s aren’t super easy, and that they aren’t spammed all the time.
I digress. The reason I don’t like them and think they aren’t a good addition to the game:
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Gogogogogogo. I play tank. I’ll happily tank anything you throw at me. Except the timer in M+'s stresses me the heck out. Why? Combination of things. I hate letting others down, which I sometimes do. I’m not an amazing tank. Far from it. But also, even know though I will never say anything, if I’m doing well then I hate being let down by others. It just feels defeating. You wipe in a non-timed dungeon or a raid, cool. Rez, do it again. You wipe in a M+, well now you are even closer to it downgrading. In games like Diablo 3 I will grind rifts all day. Because it’s just me. If I fail it, it’s my own fault, I’m not letting anyone down. Similarly, other’s aren’t letting me down. There is no animosity, instead I can celebrate achivements/milestones I make through my improvement.
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This promotes not letting people improve, not giving people chances. Now you have things like io (for perfectly valid reasons) because you don’t want your key depleted. It limits the amount of “community” interaction in a game that already suffers from terrible community. It promotes people just quitting a key if they get frustrated, and you can’t replace them. I remember in Legion I only had one person quit a key, and I said to my guild mates “I bet that becomes a bigger issue in the future”. And lo. Now it is. You see people complaining about it all the time now. In season 1 I had a 10 key, which was a bit higher than what I was comfortable tanking at the time (still kind of early season 1), so I put in the description I just wanted to complete, didn’t care about timing it. It was me and two guildies. The two pug people I invited I messaged and said “timing is a bonus, we just want to complete it” they both said “cool”. First wipe we had on trash (because DPS body pulled), the healer left group. Ruining the key.
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It brings out the worst in everyone. I have been called some hateful things when I messed up tanking. Sometimes it’s not even my fault, they assumed it was because they didn’t know the mechanics. Sometimes it was my fault. But it then doesn’t encourage me to improve, it just drove me further away from wanting to pug (so less tanks for you all), and only run with guild. But then when I run with my guild, I just feel like poo if I mess up, even though they probably won’t say anything, because I think back to all those other things people said. In non-timed dungeons it isn’t an issue. I could kick the person being mean. I could leave. Any open spot could be refilled and group could carry on as normal. But if you want the key done (on time or not), everyone just needs to tough it out, otherwise four other people now have nothing.
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I have to no every route intimately, what path to take, what mobs to skip (down to a percentage), stop every single mechanic, all as fast as possible. The actual dungeon I’m in doesn’t matter. The setting, the reasons for being there (besides loot), the look of the enemies. None of it matters. All I look at are red bars, my health, cooldowns, abilities being cast, my feet, and healer mana, all while trying to go as fast as possible.
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It’s just another grind in a game that already has too many grinds. Once upon a time you could be done. You could do all the dungeons a few times to get the gear you needed, then be done on them on that character. You could then play an alt. Now you are never done. Running Tol Dagor for the 100th time on the same character in the same spec is not fun. You know what could be fun? Instead of running it on brewmaster for the 100th time, I could go as my hunter or something. Except I don’t have time for the hunter because of all the grinds my monk has to do, and my hunter wouldn’t be doing the same content as my monk, therefore not the same content as my guild (because they are in the same position), which would make me pug, and well see above. You are also, objectively, getting less loot. Olden days of none +, when the highest level was heroic/mythic, whatever. Each boss drops stuff. Now it’s only the chest, and you get two pieces (failed key), three pieces (timed), four pieces (timed 15+). I have gone weeks without a single drop. In the past I never went weeks without a drop. Even if it wasn’t something I could use, I could still trade/vendor/de. I got something. I routinely now get nothing. Unless you spam them, i guess.
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Blizzard is now trying to make it an esport. For one, I dunno why so many things in the game need to be competitive. For two, the dungeons in BFA are just not nearly as fun as they were in Legion, because they have designed them around being competitive. Trash packed into every little nook and cranny. Every mob and their mother having multiple abilities you have to kick or life sucks. You know what I mean.
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It just promotes more flavor of the month, and accepting/declining people based upon parses and MDI selection. Even though none of that really matters if you aren’t doing super high keys. But people think it matters, so you see posts reflecting such everyday.
Anyway, I could go on and on, sorry for rant.
Edit: The other thing I wanted to add. I personally think there are too many tiers in the game anyway. All it does is necessitate stat squishes, because you have to differentiate the power needed/rewarded for more difficult content. Mythic + helps in the inbetween spots, since ilvl differences between tiers are 15. So this also feeds into my dislike because I think there should be less tiers, with a slightly less gap between said tiers.
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I don’t have any problem with M+ as content, it’s the type of people they attract that I have the problem with. Higher chance for failing means higher chance of nerd ragers, quitters, etc. Harder content also attracts people with larger egos.
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