Except thats not how it works in practice. Anyone with enough experience in a DKP system knows that. People that aren’t high in DKP do not hoard because it does them no good hoarding if they still gain no advantage… so they are the ones that take the other upgrades at deep discounts with low bids.
Thats how DKP actually works, not how the haters think it works in their weird fantasy world where everyone hoards all the time for all the same items.
You need to get out of the clouds if you expect a kumbaya guild where everyone functions like a collective. Of course everyone is out for themselves, whether they will admit it or not. The overwhelming majoirty doesnt clear the same boring bosses over and over and over again because its fun & challenging, we do it because it drops what we want. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can work out a system where people can work together and get along while still serving each’s self interest.
are you dkp? hows the turn over? i noticed a trend where dkp guilds gets filled extremely fast
yes dkp (for the most part) and turnover among the core ~30 is really low. we began filling a 2nd raid. ironically the officers foolishly decided to wipe DKP for BWL and loot counciled the first 2 runs before dkp took over, and that just so happened to be when we had the most turnover.
damn, do people just disappear during period where you had the most turnover?
i can imagine wiping the DKP would PISS off a lot of people
How would personal loot even work in classic?! Gear is much more spec specific in classic vs retail…
It would take some coding by blizzard to determine loot tables for dps warriors, enhancement shaman, ret pallies, shadow priests ect… basically any hybrid spec have a specific set of drops that they want that is not tier gear or even their armor type
As a resto druid , I would hate to have the taut dragonhide shoulders on my loot list because its leather…
Just seems like it would be a ton of work.
Wiping DKP kinda made sense, there was a whole lot of turnover during the first month or so just with people quitting classic in general & changing raid times to find the right fit. Then there was the issue of there being a huge disparity in the quantity of good loot available for different classes. They were also shifting away from low limits on bids since people would earn DKP way faster than they could spend it. The end result was a huge range of DKP values from negative DKP to 600+ when the max bid at the time was a mere 80. So MC/Ony DKP stayed for MC/Ony only, BWL was new.
The real mistake was not starting with tiered DKP to keep a minor priority for veterans & reliable raiders over new recruits without making priority arbitrary or subjective. My suggestion was to just start with base DKP being equal to a multiple of everyones lifetime attendance %, where say someone that raided since day 1 and never missed a raid would start with ~300 dkp and someone that missed a bunch of raids or only joined in the last month or 2 would start with ~150. The bid max was also raised to 120. That would have meant a 1 item advantage for every few months of raid attendance, which seemed fair.
Instead they went with a frankenstein system that would transition to DKP, but just really messed things up for the DKP when it took over. Eventually the DKP will work itself out and the flaws will be a thing of the past, but I was strongly opposed to way it started even though I actually stood to benefit.
I’ve always been of the opinion; make minor class restrictions (e.g. choker dps only) and then use perpetual DKP with unlimited bidding. When you do that, hoarders can get their items first, but they pay a huge price, and DKP naturally returns itself to zero just due to how badly people want things. It also keeps people raiding even when they dont need loot anymore.
yea definately agree with minor class restrictions
i cant clear bwl on my own, i need 39 others. can you? Don’t apply your own greed to others.
except i’ve watched it happen. we nearly had ringo’s blizzard boots get DE’d the other day in pursuit of weapon/trinket hoarding until it was made clear that if people werent going to take upgrades and would let them be disenchanted, they would be sat.
Then you must have a really bad system that doesnt involve a large range of bidding. My guess is you use fixed prices instead of bidding with a low minimum bid.
Nope, minimum bid for bwl loot is 7, 5 for mc - the equivalent of one boss kill award. 20% weekly decay.
Did you start DKP fresh for BWL, from zero? Thats another mistake guilds are making. You cant reset DKP for new raids or else you get irrational hoarding for the first month. If you have to it just means your system is not build right.
The best DKP system I played under in vanilla actually only rewarded DKP for a raid equal to the amount spent by players. That kept it a zero sum so there was never a reason to wipe DKP.
No. I don’t believe in resets in most circumstances because it disincentives players from continuing to run a raid tier once they’ve gotten the majority of their upgrades. The real problem is that our mage core are all essentially neck and neck in spending power due to nearly identical attendance. So they just sit in a standoff, waiting for 1 person to take an item to throw them out of contention for the weapons/trinkets in bwl. I have absolutely no clue how to reconcile this type of issue short of forcing upgrades on people.
You’re not going to like it, but the solution is to simply start letting some items rot. They need to see real consequences before they change their habits. Once they start seeing a couple significant upgrades go to waste that they could have had for minimum bids, at least one will break ranks and start getting decked out at a discount.
As for those boots, another possibility is that they’re just thinking long term and dont care much for frost damage boots they will never use beyond BWL. Those boots are amazing for frost, but almost every mage is anxious af to switch to fire as soon as possible.
Guild officers need to remember that there is virtually no single item that will make enough of a difference to your raid to be worth obsessing about its efficient use & distribution. Those boots are BiS for a frost mage by a wide margin … yet sill only amounts to about +10 raid DPS which is like the equivalent of having 1 holy priest wand a few times per minute. Letting it rot to send a message is not going to cause your raid to struggle. It’s more important to keep your guild happy by allowing them to keep control over their own loot decisions; take that away and you could end up with much bigger problems than losing out on 10 raid DPS.
how so? seeing content and getting purples IS the game no?
You should be doing it because its fun. If it is only fun when you’re getting pixels…then you’re spending a lot of time in the game not having fun.
This right here is entirely the problem. If a particular action (or lack of action) feeds into the decision about loot then it must be documented so that everyone knows where they stand. “Going above and beyond” is another of those ridiculous barriers wrapped in a nebulous, and to clarify my previous post what I mean is [You’re not getting loot because you’re not] “going above and beyond”.
You say your guild isn’t super sweaty but the unannounced requirements, which when encouraged and perceived as mandatory, mean your guild is in fact super sweaty but just doesn’t want to admit it. LC is a weapon in the arsenal of forcing the desired behaviour. To me that’s deceptive because I would never join a guild that tied those super sweaty actions to loot. I’m unclear how this happens but I assume there is a gradual shift from the playerbase towards all world buffs and consumes being the norm, and the LC unconsciously adds those facets to their decisions.
But they are announced. Our loot council is a rotating council which includes 3 different officers every week and 2 different raiders, going down the roster. This mitigates issues with favoritism, perceived or otherwise, and includes our raiders in the decision making process. Their votes and reasoning are cast first, prior to officer votes, so they don’t feel pressured by the officers.
Everyone’s on the same page. We encourage the non-officers to take the decisions behind each distribution to the wider group. It’s an open door policy, full transparency.
Nothing “nebulous” about it. People who don’t want to bother know exactly what’s up. They choose to stay because they know we don’t care, they’ll just get their loot later, and everything’s good.
The only people upset are the ones who are perceiving injustice on their behalf, like yourself because you’ve never been part of a well run council, and so can’t grasp what that might even be like—and that’s too bad.
The part I quoted specifically related to these things not being mandated. And what you’ve described is the prototypical LC arrangement where you have the group that does X, Y and Z and gets loot. They love LC. The other group either doesn’t know or doesn’t care and get the dregs. They fill up the raid and are neither great nor bad.
You speak from the side of the argument that gets all the benefits of loot council.