Depends on the situations for them both, I think a priest fear in general should be more punishing than a warlock fear, and same goes with cyclone should be more punishing when it lands than a warlock fear probably (but this is a hard one to judge).
Reasoning on Priest and Clone needing higher punishment for landing is how much more counterplay there is to them (they both sacrifice positioning heavily for example). Landing a fear as a Priest off CD should show that the opponent has either played poorly and/or the priests team played very well.
Trap and Polymorph are always a tough one as far as comparison. Trap is instant yet still is on a CD, Poly is spammable, but casted. It has to depend on the comp/class that youâre fighting to have the value of it determined. There are multiple situations where you could want a polymorph over a trap, and vise versa.
This is where again, the team youâre fighting matters. A resto druid should get punished pretty heavily for eating traps/polymorphs compared to any other healer as they have the best tools to punish them for example. A healer like a Holy Paladin who canât avoid Polymorphs/Traps as easily shouldnât fall as behind from just one of these in comparison to a resto druid. This can kind of go back and forth.
Thereâs times where a trap is really simple to land and yet punishing to fail; thereâs times where the same happens with polymorph (i.e if you miss a trap youâre not getting one for 30 seconds, but if you get stopped on sheep thereâs obviously the times you can just rof now and sheep spam anyways but thereâs also times you might never get a sheep etc.)
It all comes down to what types of comps/classes are dealing with those CCs etc. If your comp/class is fantastic at avoiding a type of crowd control and you eat them at every opportunity you should be punished. On the other hand if your comp/class is mediocre at avoiding a certain type of crowd control it shouldnât be as punishing (I think the Holy Paladin example is good here).
I called it a long time ago. Itâs cool to see you, finally, recognizing you are biased towards Disc Priests (aka: your main comp ) . Please donât get me wrong, we are all biased towards something, itâs natural and this is a huge step for you as a person! Congratulations!
How much skill one needs to execute the harpoon+trap combo? Iâm not a good druid and would rely on more skilled druids to answer this, but Iâm able to, rarely, squeeze a bash before the trap lands (sometimes it happens at the same time and we are both ccd) or drop a vortex to deny the gap closer from harpoon (predicting the incoming trap). These are very rare situations because the reaction time is within 1 sec and Iâm able to counter only one of them (trap is 30 sec CD and bash is 50, and any half-brained hunter will see the vortex and wait until it ends or move to trigger the effect before using harpoon).
So, at the time you say that a perfectly executed cc chain should be able to land a kill, we have a game where one doesnât require any type of high skilled knowledge of the game mechanics to start and maintain a chain of instant ccs⊠On the other hand, IMO, to stop/counter or break those chains, requires much more awareness and skills than just to land them. I might be wrong ⊠but this is how it feels.
On a fast paced meta, heavy CC specs/comps always have some sort of advantage because the game mechanic around CCs is so simplified that everybody can do a decent cc chain.
Youâre not necessarily recognizing the situations where a casted CC can be easier to land than an instant CC and/or more punishing. I already stated the example with a priest. A priest going for a fear requires him to get into melee range. As the least mobile healer in the game. Itâs actually quite easy to stop and/or punish him for pushing in for a fear as a disc priest - so a priest that actually is landing a fear off CD should be rewarded for it. Likewise, a resto druid pushing in for a cyclone which is short range also should be very rewarding because there is high punish to sacrificing your positioning AND going for a cast. There is simply going to be value that is hard to always compare when youâre comparing CD CC to CC that is spammable and casted but still no CD.
And then I used druids. Druids have the best tools of any healer to avoid traps or polymorphs. As such they should be punished harder than any healer when they are hit by one.
Trapping a disc priest or a resto shaman for example though is incredibly easy due to have poor their mobility is - meaning I can always be in the situation to just wait for them to have to use say death/grounding w.e. I find it interesting when good priests still make it difficult to get trapped. But still, it shouldnât be as punishing when you land one on them due to the nature of how easy it is.
Polymorphs again are difficult to gauge too because vs some healers itâs a matter of inevitability - that you will land a polymorph on some healers eventually, and others it would just take too much time.
As far as value goes I think the value for trap/polymorph has actually been pretty consistent for a few years. Polymorph in most situations ends up being stronger on high end than traps which is actually something Iâm perfectly fine with and have no complaints about, but if you donât really see the value in spammable CC that while it is casted isnât necessarily much more difficult to land - but also the value in it being used for peeling too while a trap canât really get used in that sense. It must always be used on the healer.
Iâve never acted like no one has any biases, but that doesnât mean I let biases cloud my judgement because I also want this game to have diversity including comps that counter my own.
I have pretty much the same window of time to react to trapping as you do to avoid it, especially if Iâm trapping from max range. If youâre sitting max range from a hunter which I actually always at least see Rdruids do this, then you have the option to shift the harpoon and get away, bash like you said, vortex him mid trap etc. The time Iâm in the air if from max range gives a resto druid a good window of opportunity to react.
While it seems like itâs some crazy clutch play itâs not something that I donât expect the very best teams to be ready to do consistently (just the same as a priest deathing a trap or a polymorph really).
Not necessarily, even in the very fastest paced metas weâve had itâs actually still really safe comps that still do well. For example the moves RPS made it very far, but we did still see that Method Orange was able to dominate this year with Boomkin/Dh/Rsham. Or the plenty of times in WoTLK/MoP where we still had a fast paced game and yet still at the high end it was a lock shaman that took home a trophy.
And yet, I donât really care about defensive comps doing well in those situations. Because those players are fantastic at defensive play and did a great job. Loony is probably my favorite player and I always love watching his team yet theyâre still âdampenersâ. In fact their team is also complaining about the meta and current pacing of the game. Because youâre just stuck wasting your time in these very long matchups that you might even know the outcome 15 minutes before the game even ends and it just feels frustrating.
Iâm not against dampening comps existing. I think any âfast pacedâ comp should always be on a time limit against a defensive oriented comp - play perfectly and get every set up off CD in a quick window of time and you should win, donât and you should lose. That makes it exciting as one team is basically trying to score a goal and the other is trying to prevent it from happening.
Fast paced matches can still happen even with defensive oriented comps which is where youâre just really wrong on what my viewpoint is. Dampeners are fun and exciting to watch imo when itâs just not happening by default.
You know for a lot of situations if youâre playing a defensively oriented comp anyways the time you delay someone actually can entirely throw the possibility out of the window especially if they actually need to get their CC off CD off DR - holding it for a safer opportunity can end up not netting anything from happening even if you guarantee it.
The time that the person is actually there harassing you is also a period of time theyâre not doing anything.
Okay if Iâm a shaman facing ret/Hunter what am I going to use grounding on outside of trying to get the trap/hoj? Why would I just randomly use it lol
Another example being tremor totem. If I pre tremor priest fear he has no follow up. If I tremor lock fear I can still eat 6 seconds of fear after.
Yeah plus even if he doesnât fear into the tremor the time you make him waste can give you and your team enough time to delay or just prevent him from obtaining the opportunity to fear in the first place, which creates one of my favorite interactions in wow in general.
The point is that he never admitted openly being biased and always got defensive when called it out. He always tried to be impartial on his posts but we all know itâs possible see how biased he is if we read through the lines.
Only if youâre saying Iâm biased to the point that I donât want any other playstyle to be viable, and I still have never said that I only want disc priests to be competitive. I like playing with disc priests. I like being offensive. But I donât want them to be the only healer in arena. I donât want every team to be a disc priest and every match up to be disc vs disc or jungle mirrors or whatever extreme youâre assuming I actually care about which is why my biases are irrelevant, I actually care to seeing a ton of comp and class diversity so while I personally prefer playing with disc priests and am biased towards wanting to see them at least succeed - I still donât need them to be the best most broken class/healer in the game to be happy.
I honestly prefer being an underdog to a degree - just not to the point that youâre not able to beat players you severely outskill.
Because of this my âbiasesâ are irrelevant in any of these discussions. All I care about is just fighting good players and good teams, itâs not that much to ask for. As a competitive player itâs entirely frustrating to know that any time I win is not because I played good but because my opponent is tremendously horrible and would be actually duelist level (at best) if the meta wasnât like this.
Yeah, right, but this is what you said after resto druids were severely nerfed on S1:
I think we all remember where resto druids were on S1⊠but in your mind âthey were still T1, bro!â.
Even Gorecki, one of the top Resto Druids, was playing his Shaman back then (and I remember you saying over and over again that you like to see people playing their mains, always, so they can provide a high level and entertaining game!), but hey ⊠âRDruids still T1, bro!ââŠ
Is nice to remind some of your iconic comments from when Disc Priests were on the top and resto druids were at the bottom:
So, in your own words, a faster game pace, in fact, isnât good for resto druids⊠I thought you said that every healer has a chance on a fast paced meta
This is only because the current meta has been increasingly rewarding everything a rdruid does defensively and nothing offensively at alll. Rdruid needs a few changes towards that way so why donât you go dig up me saying that Rdruid needs lower mana cost on utilities as well and no changes towards itself that are nerfs, and every hotfix theyâve gotten late thatâs a direct nerf is foolish.
Look man Iâm sick of fighting participation trophy druids and I havenât wanted their spec to get crushed at all, you guys are just so defensive at the mere idea that something is incredibly wrong rofl. Youâre trying so hard to reach for something that isnât there.
Obviously live pacing was too high when they had gotten direct nerfs to hps which is why that was always a problem. Same reason I argued against it initially. If the meta is super slow for rdruids their tuning wonât matter especially when their toolkit isnât why theyâre brought to arena, it doesnât mean rdruids canât exist in a fast paced meta or comps like they have for years before.
But basically just like I called before super nerfed awful version of rdruid is only good when the game pace is super slow hence why they were strong towards the begining of s2 and the end of bfa s1 and getting buffs was silly to begin with. They needed to have a faster game pace and then output buffs then a reward to playing offensively instead their output is slow and their entire playstyle is rewarding towards dampening now forcing you to only be useful towards dampening, pretty simple issue with a simple solution that requires just understanding the class you play because surprise surprise they became good again after S1 nerfs for the exact toxic reasons I called - and the solution to helping or nerfing rdruid was never to do anything to them directly.
) . Please donât get me wrong, we are all biased towards something, itâs natural and this is a huge step for you as a person! Congratulations!![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
