IF they don’t want it and it’s forced on them… it is by definition not good.
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Yep, and I think WoW’s Cosmology is at it’s best when it’s pillars are similarly nebulous. We have warlocks using the fel for good, likewise death knights using death magic.
But if you point out the Light could be used by bad actors, or that some of it’s creatures, like the Naaru or Lightspawn, have the potential to be just as bad as the void entities? Well… I think the reaction to that speaks for itself.
My man, did you miss the brainwashing? Or the imperial conquering in the Mag’har starting quest area?
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Think Star Wars.
There was once a Jedi who stopped a hostage situation using a single bolt of Force Lightning. He had to explain in front of the council that it was his intent that mattered. If he could have used Force Pull, for example, to stop the situation without harm, he would have.
And yet, Force Lightning is most often called Sith Lightning.
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Great example. Especially because both the Light and the Force have religious or quasi-religious organizations associated with them, which I think is where a lot of people balk at criticizing them, despite their hypocrisy or use by dangerous idealogies.
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In my opinion it’s just boring when every cosmic force is basically the same, just in a different colour. There seems to be much more potential for conflict in the story when all the different factions, standing for a specific cosmic force, clash with each other. It makes things more spicy, but sadly this kind of conflict is just completely missing and forgotten about. I hoped for much more conflict with the Void Elves for example, because Stormwind and parts of the Alliance are very light-heavy with their religious beliefs. There was just… nothing, the Void has been treated like any other magic.
The good, the horrific, the Order, pure chaos, life-threatening evil and life itself were represented by different cosmic powers that could’ve lead to a lot of inner conflict. Now it’s just golden magic that is working together with black magic, blue magic, even more black magic and green magic and everything is grey and neutral.
There were some conflicts with the Scarlets for example. But the conflict wasn’t because of the Light, but rather because they’re racist and fanatic jerks who want to eradicate everyone who’s different.
I’d argue that each faction being a monolith that only has one defined quality associated it is more boring, but to each their own. When we introduce nuance to each pillar of the cosmology, we allow for them to interact in more meaningful ways than just “WE ARE DIFFERENT AND MUST BE OPPOSED NOW.”
How about exteremely good?
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There’s a strong urge in “western” culture to interpret cosmic forces in fiction or otherwise… through a lens of GoodTM vs EvilTM… instead of treating them as basically the cosmological underpinnings of the world within the setting or worldview in question.
See how so many fictional depictions of underworld deities, end up hellish, evil, unsympathetic, etc… even if they’re extremely benevolent in their original context/system.
I could give other examples but I don’t want to flirt with any forum rules about IRL stuff.
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Almost all of your points are from Legion forward. That was the turning point. Until then the Light was unambiguously good. And that scene with Xe’ra is probably the thing that actually killed WoW’s story for me. I could tolerate all the other retcons and nonsense, but the whole “Akshually, the unambiguous good is also bad!” is such infantile 90s edgelord writing I can’t even.
The Scarlets could’ve pretty easily been written out with a “Light Works in Mysterious Ways” solution (kind of like how Mu’ru was letting the Belfs suck him dry to make their Paladins.
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Wild that it killed the narrative for you, I didn’t have beef with the cosmology until Shadowlands. Legion’s reveal of the Light as a more neutral force with it’s own agenda was VERY interesting for me.
The idea that the Light could be neutral or even dangerous isn’t edgy, it’s mature worldbuilding. Power and faith aren’t automatically pure just because they’re “good.” The Light’s strength comes from conviction, but that same conviction can turn into fanaticism when left unchecked. Seeing that side of it gives the story depth and makes the moral stakes feel real instead of one-note hero worship.
I’m curious what makes you see it as childish. Do you think the Light should always stay purely good, or do you feel the moral grayness just doesn’t fit Warcraft’s tone?
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Shadowlands reads like a very cynical, “death as big business”, take on death, afterlives, and cosmology… everything powered by a “soul tax”, the dead being forced into servitude, the various realms and lords competing for souls, etc.
Turning the nebulous and mysterious lands of death into a LITERAL bureaucratic machine made my eyes roll out of my head, especially when it seemed to sideline and contradict the more interesting existing lore.
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What’s the comment in the game? Something like… The Light seeks one path and shuns all others as lies. The Void seeks every possible path and sees them all as truth.
Both are clearly wrong, each a philosophy taken to the extreme…
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Love that. I think the beef people have with the Light as a Neutral entity as a concept, is that it DOES hold a bit of a mirror up to real-life examples of idealogical extremism and fanaticism that they aren’t comfortable with having examined in the games that they play but like…
These are not new things. Questioning and railing against fanatical and zealous entities has been a trope in games for decades, like since the earliest days of the format.
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It’s also a very dire Forgotten Realms like view of the afterlife…
(For those who don’t know, despite looking like fun fantasy setting… FR has a a very bleak afterlife… with almost all souls condemned to a time of servitude and eventual loss of the self as each blurs into the realm and role assigned… where those who don’t choose a god have damnation chosen for them… where gods and entire realms are powered by what’s almost the recycling of souls… it’s horrific.)
Kinda like your original post.
r/atheism is that way ----------------->
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Hey, I would be fine even if that was ONE of the afterlives, having some of the afterlives be horrific machines of death is kind of wild and fun. But having the entire system be overseen by weird cosmic death robots was like… What the hell are we even doing? Oribos should have been ONE of the afterlives, not the overseeing force above everything.
Hey, thanks for the useless comment and the bump!
Thanks ChatGPT.
Kaz (see character pic), being a warlock, and a blood elf who still relies on fel energy to stave off the magic addiction (her eyes are still green for a reason)… is always a little leery of working with some of the Light fanatics…
(Even if the game almost always ignores that a warlock is a warlock, that a shadow priest is a shadow priest, etc…)
Because there are fanatics, and they are on a crusade… and if they ever do defeat the Legion and the other big threats, where do they turn next? Do they start trying to purge, via death or forced cleansing, people like Kaz?
I’m hoping they explore the transition from Fel Magic to Light Magic more in midnight. I want to see some Lightbound elves show up! Show us that it wasn’t the miracle cure it seemed like it was in Legion! I eat that up!
I think the Mag’har starting area shows us exactly what happens when the Light “Wins” in a timeline. And I’m here for it. WoW has a dearth of good villains right now, and I welcome some interesting ones.
Thanks for the bump, mindless troll! 