The feeling part:
That feels anticlimactic. ‘Oh, we just get a proc for a super undead.’ Part of the Riders showing up is that it is a hero talent tree and we have a special connection to them. It is part of the theme of the hero talents. Just having a lich show up kind of randomly feels out of place.
The gameplay issue:
It would shift more of our damage to the CD window. We already have a fair amount of damage in a CD window, adding more runs a very real risk of making us weak outside it. And anything that delays popping CDs tanks our value. And, keep in mind, if we are summoning a Lich it has to be pretty impactful or why do it. So a fair amount of damage has to be tied to it.
That is kind of the issue with adding high tier undead to procs or other abilities. It both cheapens them and causes balance issues.
My feeling is that those higher tier undead need to be special. If DKs ever get them as summons it probably needs to be a Hero talent tree. Like if they added another choice for a heroic talent tree, one that had things like Liches and Sanlayan being summoned.
I don’t think Banshees are a big deal. They are not the same as Lich/Sanlayan/etc. There are lots of lower level Banshee’s in the game. There are some powerful ones, but not all are. Banshees could just be an option for an appearance change on the Gargoyle.
I just made up one example in 10 mins, there’s many different ways one could introduce such things, be it inside or outside of cds, they decide.
For example they could also go the Diabolist route where every now and then a greater undead spawns in from a death gate → does a special attack → then leaves.
Not tied to cds, just some extra flavour and variety.
If you personally don’t care about such things, that’s fine and you’re entitled to your own opinion.
But I do now that lots of people in the community would get excited about summoning a more powerful undead occasionally besides just the hundreds of lesser ghouls…
I don’t think either would be good. CDs obviously have the gameplay issues I mentioned. Random procs also do. They have to do a lot of damage or what is the point, and it would feel bad. And having big spikes of damage happen at bad times could just cause our damage to swing wildly based on dice rolls.
I just think they introduce to many problem mechanically and at the same time end up feeling bad.
Well, yah. So is everyone. Thing is, we are discussing opinions all the way around. Everything in this thread all goes back to opinions.
And for reference, it is less that I ‘don’t care’ and more that I think it would be a bad idea overall. Yes, just an opinion. But, again, so is basically everything in this thread.
Cool. Your point?
There are people who have the opinion that summoning bigger stuff would be good.
There are people who have the opinion that summoning bigger stuff would be bad.
If you want to discuss this topic, well you should be willing to have a discussion about the reasons with people that have a different view than you to. If you are not interested in discussing that, why are you even here?
In what part of the hero talent would summoning Lich will it fit in exactly? Because neither Hero Talent doesn’t revolve to our actual talent. I wished we better design within hero talents that isnt all the same.
After all, I don’t think needing extra new hero talent is the solution. But our hero talent tree should’ve been adjusted more where the main spec where are have slight domination over the 2 specs. For example: Unholy + Frost instead of the 4 horse, it should’ve been focus on a bit frost & necromancy where you are able to summon Lich and same with Unholy + Blood focus with Sanlayan actually honing shadow abilities with blood instead of conjuring blood beast but minions/ worms & able to summon an actually Sanlayan
I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying.
The Riders are part of the hero talents theme.
Liches are not.
Which is kind of the issue with Liches.
I was more approaching it from the what is and what could be added in the future rather than what they could have done in the past.
My feeling is that adding summons like a Lich need to be something more than a proc/new CD. It would need to be a Hero Talent tree thing. And it doesn’t fit with Riders. So, it would need to be something new. Had they given us a Hero talent other than Riders or Sanlayan that had Lich summon, that would have worked too. But we are past the time for that.
It seems unlikely anyone on this forum could offer you an idea about this matter that you’d like…
Maybe all you want is just some skins for lesser undead and that’s fine.
In the end, it’s not us players who come up with new game mechanic ideas, that’s the devs job. My personal opinion is that I’d like the devs to find a smart way to let us summon a different type of cool undead in a way that works well through a talent…
If and how they do it is up to them.
Funny how you talk about me, but you just read and quoted something and the thing you respond with has nothing to do with what you quoted. Where did you get them saying that summoning a Lich will fit a hero talent? They didnt, but they are saying that the horsemen being summoned is different than just a lich showing up. Which it is. The Horsemen have Deathgates but im sure you will make up some nonsense about Liches or something. They are just fundamentally different.
Liches are glorified necromancers and they would really just do the same thing as a magus. There isnt a point to it.
That says more about the idea of Lich summoning. If there is no idea that would really fit then you are really just saying “I want because cool”. This is an RPG and things need to make sense within the world.
In my opinion, we are already able to summon; gargoyles , magus, abomination, ghouls, and at one point were able to summon dark arbiters to fight for us.
A new hero talent shouldn’t be a choice to summon Liches or Saylayn when have existing hero talents that should’ve done that in the first place because Riders just feels like generic hero talent to our general DK talent tree that has nothing to do neither specs.
However, I feel like summoning liches really comes down to our Unholy talent tree where using Dark transformation should have choice to summon Lich or Ghoul Bane (roid ghoul)
I am not. And I am more than a little confused how you read “heated” into what I said.
I never actually get heated by the forums. I would not come here if I did. Worst is I might roll my eyes and sigh when someone says something particularly dumb. You didn’t get me to even that level.
Because I didn’t like yours?
If you were paying attention, I even offered a potential direction that might work. Specifically a new Hero talent tree. Is it likely to happen? Probably not. Could it work? Sure.
The problem is mostly what is offered beyond just ‘I want it’ are procs or CDs, both of which are loaded with problems.
So, you just want it somehow. Cool. I guess there is no more discussion.
I get that you feel it should have been different. I wont fault you for that. But we have what we have.
I agree. I even mentioned them before. Personally, I would love to see them as a Gargoyle alternate model. They also usually have ranged attacks and fly. They could move, attack and behave exactly the same as Gargoyles with just an appearance change.
I would love to have barber shop like interface allowing us to pick which undead we use. And even have a random option.
