But it’s not at all working for the community at large. That’s my point.
That’s an awful decent chunk of your life you won’t get back. Glad you spent the time productively.
I think the point is that regardless of the playerbase’s actual ability to do so, it is clear from years of these problems that they simply aren’t going to. We can sit here until we die debating about how they should. It won’t change anything.
Action from Blizzard will.
It doesn’t really take all that much time, and if even a few people learned to take more positive steps toward better outcomes than complaining, or asking for an authority to save them, then the time I invested was worth it.
I’ve read stories from people who have described their success at changing the way they’ve approached these types of things, so even if there is a large majority of people who won’t do it, there are people who are learning how to be responsible for their own success.
People who are unwilling to use their available options can continue to be frustrated by their circumstances. It doesn’t negatively impact me or other responsible people. Begging for an authority figure to intercede and dictate behavior for people is an inherently bad solution in all but the most extreme cases. A video game does not qualify.
Zothlar is this your main? If it is your argument is moot because you have done little to nothing serious in the M+ arena. Please let us know? If you are making an argument from so little experience then why should we even listen when you say
since you have no experience in the matter?
Certainly happy to be wrong if you will prove that you actually have the experience you are touting in your previous posts.
Normally I dismiss requests like this, but you are correct, my experience is relevant to some of the claims I’ve made here.
My current main is Kaliendara-Bleeding Hollow
My main at the end of BFA was Zothlaar-Argent Dawn
This lock was the primary M+ character in Legion and the first tiers of BFA, although I’ve done assorted pugging on various alts through most of that time.
My experience is not anywhere near the upper end of M+ players, but I hope you recognize that I’ve never claimed to be a high achieving M+ player. I have claimed that I have completed keys numbering in the hundreds, and that in that time I have encountered no one who lied about their intentions when asked. I’ve also claimed that I have never left a key early and that I’ve only had two people leave keys I’ve been in, although I’m not sure there is any way to vet those final two claims, so you’ll either believe me or you won’t.
As stated above, I do have the experience I’m claiming.
Not sure why you felt it was important to add this after giving me only 2 minutes to answer your question, but again, hopefully you are satisfied by the answers above that my experience justifies my claims.
only a hypothetical
So my argument to you is that you make an inadvertent false equivocation. You relay the idea that each must be responsible for their own actions but fail to mention why. Real life has consequences for your actions, responsibility insures the best outcome of those consequences. However we are not talking about real life as a whole but only in a minute part. We instead are talking about a game with built in relief and even complete negation for the consequences of bad behavior such as irresponsibility, failure and narcissism. In fact, it rewards the latter instead of punishing it. The above posts are simply trying to struggle toward a balance that we find in real life. It is not illegitimate to expect a consequence that is bound in nature and normal social structures in the real world.
Agreed. He seems to be suggesting that we should all be responsible human beings who take responsibility for our actions. That’s fine for philosophy class, and a great ideal for humanity to aim for, but it is not at all the reality we have, in real life, or in this video game.
Curious as to how tough it would be for Blizz to implement a system to ‘flag’ a player, and add the option to report them for leaving a key. I’m sure (given how toxic lower end pugs can be) it would be abused, but how tough would it be for management to go back through logs and see whether the report was actually true? One or two flags may not raise any concern and leave room for actual emergencies, but a player/account who displays a consistent pattern of that behavior could be penalized/warned.
I wouldn’t trust a flag system. It would be abused far, far more than it would be used.
My favorite idea is just to stop downgrading keys. Then if someone bails, the group can just do it again, and the keyholder isn’t forced to build a group to level the depleted key back up.
I mean, that’s the most frustrating part. It’s why I never run my own key. I’m generally only doing keys one level higher than what I’ve timed, so j almost always end up with a weekly key that’s a level lower than what I need for score.
If you take the time to build a proper group, then it fails due to someone being an idiot, it feels absolutely soul crushing to now have to go form a new group, run and time the lowered key, then form yet another group just to get back to where you started. That idiot only lost the time he spent ruining your key.
If keys no longer downgraded, players would only lose the time invested in the failed attempt at that key.
Agreed.
However, I feel that keys no longer downgrading would potentially encourage the poor behavior because keys would be treated even more cavalierly: “Oh, I’m not hurting anything by leaving because their key stays the same,” and so we have even more people leaving because they can. On the other side though, at least the keyholder would not be penalized for someone else’s childishness. I see both sides.
Not sure, but seriously annoying, perhaps track how many dungeons a players balled on? Kinda like how IO tracks progress.
Severely annoying getting 2 keys tanked from both being 12 to 6 in one night, solely based on quitters, timing the key wasn’t an issue in majority of cases. Key leavers would get a bad wrap fast & never be able to group so they would care for their reputation.
The only peeps with any to lose is either the grifters, or paid blizz shills tanking keys to increase mua’s (joking…kinda.)
Not had any issues myself with disconnections other than a forced win10 update during a group formation, sorry Dk tank guy wasn’t on purpose I assure you, I value others time like my own)
But don’t you see, it’s your fault because you’re pugging instead of running with your own group. So you should bear the consequences of someone else’s actions. (Sarcasm.)
While that’s certainly a possibility, I don’t think non-keyholders really think at all about anyone but themselves when making a decision to leave. Like, they know now what leaving does to the keyholder and they do it anyway, because they can, and because there’s zero social consequence. They can instantly go try it again with a new group of strangers while the last group of strangers is still cursing their name and adding them to the ignore list. This rarely happened before cross realms, server transfers, and name changes. If you joined your server’s groups and continually behaved in a way that upset your entire group, word got around, and you didn’t get groups anymore. No server or faction transfer to escape it. No name change to hide behind. You had to repair your own reputation by being a decent person to others.
Folks like Zolthar want us to all behave properly without Blizzard’s influence, but the wall of anonymity Blizzard has constructed here assures that players treat each other like this game is an anonymous internet comment section. Blizzard built that anonymity wall. It’s on Blizzard now to fix.
Concern for the keyholders is why I’m never the first one to leave a key and will always, always defer to what the keyholder wants to do when it becomes clear we won’t make time. I know how crappy it feels for the keyholder to have to go make a new group, then time the lowered key just to get back to where they started. It’s a huge waste of time, and I’m just not gonna do that to another human.
Can’t speak for others, I reach out all the time, but breaking the anti-social barrier without eye contact & body language is ROUGH.
If someone could figure out a way to get this to work in current content, what an amazing change that would be.
i would never compare an RTS to WoW. the dynamic of a SC2 game is way different than a dungeon. it will be abused heavily.
also i’m very familiar with Warcraft 3 and SC2 ladders, and the pause structure. it’s used for very small breaks in the game. wouldn’t work here imo.
Pausing a timer in a SC2 game also paused EVERYTHING. movement, mining time, etc. Pausing would have to do the same thing in a dungeon - freeze mobs, patrols, timers on cooldowns, etc. too. i don’t see that working
How do you think a limited use, limited duration pause will be abused?
Perhaps better leave implementation up to the developers. It’s been done, there’s precedent for it. If Blizzard decided to do something like this, they would have no trouble. There’s more than one way to implement such functionality.
i just want to know the benefit of having it? starcraft matches aren’t timed runs. pausing during timed runs defeats the purpose and as a PUG player, i just feel like it has no place at all. and it would be abused, it’s already pretty toxic out there lol
anyway just my opinion tbh, i just think pause for mythic dungeons would really suck. especially for a pug group, i can already see the issues.
Blizzard built a game. That’s it. It’s not their job to force people to play with you.
Great! You don’t bail on keys, I don’t bail on keys. Hopefully, none of the people complaining about this don’t bail on keys. That creates an enormous potential for like minded people to group together for keys without bailing. Create a community of people who feel the same way and never have to pug through group finder again. Even if it’s not a regular group, drawing on pugs from a community of people who are pledged not to bail should be drastically reduce the risk of key abandonment, all without Blizzard forcing social relationships.
Why is this not a much better solution than punishing people who don’t want to play with you anymore? My hypothesis is that people want higher skilled players to give them a better chance of timing keys without having those higher skill players having the option of leaving. They don’t want to do keys with other people looking for completion because those people are less likely to time the key. Granted, this is speculation and I don’t have supporting evidence, but it seems plausible.
The purpose is to specifically mitigate the impact of a disconnect on a timed run, which is a common occurrence. A single (or possibly two) time out calls via majority vote that suspends progress (in some way) in the dungeon for at most 60 seconds, allowing time for the disconnected player to reconnect.
How does it defeat the purpose as a pug player? I know WoW isn’t the same as SC2 or CS:GO, but the point is that pausing matches, especially to mitigate disconnects, is a thing that exists and could function the same here.
I’m trying to understand them, hence my questions and this conversation 