There goes that stupid statement that always gets fallen back on. People aren’t asking for things to be less challenging. They are asking for less annoyance.
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Tell me how what I said is any different from anything that’s been proposed.
“I want to be rewarded for doing it correctly”
The correct way to handle a cleave is to not stand in front and the crit would be the reward. Virtually identical to any positive or kiss curse affix. And before you try to “gotcha” me, I think most of those affixes were abominations, fun or not.
I know how you think, so I’ll take this as a compliment. I know just how breathy you get when trying to make a point as well because you have to consider your words oh so heavily. I fail to see how my balking about being either having Stockholm Syndrome or otherwise being a sycophant points to my maturity, but again, I know you well enough to know this is your version of a pasé insult.
Um… You’re
I never said anything about getting good. I said I like affixes and the developers are actively against positive affixes because they break the difficulty curve. A very well reasoned argument that people are ignoring. You can disagree with them and me and it will amount to nothing. I have no power anyway.
What you’re really seeing is an illustration of how ridiculous these comments are. In the example of driving 90, I’m pointing to a scenario where it’s impossible to not understand the claim.
In the example about dodging a cleave, I can quote the person who stated they feel they should be rewarded for doing something “correctly”, but I’ll have to go back and find it.
You often ignore the more ridiculous people you agree with and then try to shout me down for pointing out how ridiculous they are. Fix that.
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And then there’s the same old rebuttal. Oh yeah well you could of fooled me because everywhere you look online they kinda are?
So annoying and challenging have to be and mean the same thing. Okay.
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You are so close from understanding but yet so far
This is the story that you’re making up and why your argument seems so childish.
Until you can get past that your contribution to this conversation with be nothing but sarcasm and derision.
Btw, I’m on my high horse about being adults in this conversation, not about being good at video games. Right or wrong, I’ll cop to believing that one is about respect, the other is not.
I want you to know that I typically enjoy your contribution even if I don’t agree with it. I fully want to hear what you have to say, so I’m not trying to censor you, I’m asking you to bring the conversation up a notch, even if you don’t think the posters are worthy.
Let’s all be the bigger person?
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Really?
Except it’s not a well reasoned argument at all. It’s just one of convenience. The reason it breaks the difficulty curve (ie, between +9 and +10 as you pointed out earlier) is because affixes are added on at different key levels in the current design.
In fact, one could argue that we don’t have a difficulty curve at all right now. We have a difficulty staircase, one where the jumps between each stair is not consistent.
We’re talking about change here, so Blizzard saying they can’t possibly change one aspect that isn’t working because it wouldn’t interact well with another aspect that isn’t working is a bit silly, and one that I’m not inclined to take seriously. If the only thing holding us back from having actually enjoyable affixes is the fact that a positive affix would make a higher key level harder than the one before it, then just have all affixes apply at all key levels. Boom, problem solved.
As I suggested earlier, this should be done anyway, regardless of what they do with actual affix mechanics.
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It’s the same argument to most of the people complaining. I’d bet you all the money I have that if those people woke up tomorrow and all of the affixes were positive or kiss/curse, but the timers were adjusted to keep the difficulty the same as it was right now, people would still be complaining.
No, they don’t have to, but they do to most of the people complaining. Failing to time a key is annoying, having to do keys to get vault rewards is annoying. Why can’t I just log in and open my vault every week and get epics?
I think everyone agrees with the idea that the current iteration isn’t great. That doesn’t automatically make the suggestions here scripture.
If I had a dollar for every complaint surrounding PI…including ones from people receiving PI feeling like they need to receive it to do competitive damage. It’s all relative like I’ve been saying.
You could have affixes tuned in a way where one week gives effectively +10% damage, another week gives +20%, and another +30%, and if the timers and relative difficulty is tuned around the average of these affixes, people are going to complain that the 10% damage week is “the worst thing for the game”, “feels bad”, “annoying” etc…because it’s harder than other weeks.
If the affixes are annoying and the tangible benefits for playing them are minimal, they’re still annoying and people will still complain about them. The level of impact the positive effect would have to have for some people in this thread to consider them “fun” would be at a level where it effectively wins the dungeon for them.
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They will always complain about them, no matter what. The affix could be, whoever does the most damage gets their lawn mowed for free and they’d complain about how their class isn’t tuned for top damage and they don’t have a lawn so there’s no incentive and how it’s already too hard to find tanks and healers and blah blah blah.
Welcome to the forums.
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I’m pointing to his projection as he accuses me of making up stories, which I wasn’t while saying my argument Was “get gud” which is also not anything I said.
Don’t you worry, we spoke in private and we disagree on much more than this.
I like how shrouding had generally positive feedback and was mostly considered a fun season and Blizz were like “Yeah we don’t want to continue with that.”
Boggles the brain. They seem to treat the game like a job and less like, y’know, a game.
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It’s not like the actual top players even agree with their sentiment anyway…
They’re calling for a kiss/curse approach too. So I don’t see why the “make it hard” approach would even make them look good.
Imagine thinking kiss/curse style affixes can’t be challenging and rewarding at the same time…
How are they the same? Dodging a tail swipe is a foundational dungeon mechanic. Nobody expects a buff just for following every little base mechanic correctly.
Kiss/curse style mechanics would add the exact same level of challenge while adding more incentivisation and enthusiasm to engage with them instead the “What garbage do I have to deal with this week?” attitude towards them.
Nobody is asking for buffs that make you op. The challenge of tackling the affixes in the first place is still there. What would be nice is compensation for playing the affix instead of being punished either way.
Explosive orbs is the perfect example. It wasn’t supposed to be left to the healer and yet that’s what it turned into because the GCD tax was too inefficient and lead to a punishing amount of DPS loss.
And aside from all that, would the sky really come falling down tomorrow if we just made the game a little more fun and rewarding to play instead of slogging through mythics every week for IO and loot and making have to feel like a chore?
Like I said, you’re not removing the the challenge. It’s still there. You’re still punished for failing them. That’s the philosophy a kiss/curse style mechanic. They’re not OP buffs that make the instance a faceroll. They’re there to make playing the affixes feel rewarding instead of punishing either way. Because that’s how games should be. If Ion doesn’t understand that, then maybe he should quit and come back after he’s taken a course on basic game design. This is a GAME. It should feel more like a GAME and less like a CHORE.
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He likes necrotic thats all that needs to be said. His takes are very delusional of what is healthy for the game. The longer we tailor to 0.001% people the the faster this game dies. Whenever I hear those people like Zothlar fetishising all those garbage affixes and other ludicrous M+ thoughts I facepalm. So many more people pug M+ and are between 0 and 20. They hate all those affixes and other garbage they have to deal with as you can see in this season. If you want a challenge just go higher keys? How about that? Or is it suddenly to difficult? Keep Fortify and Tyrannical, even though I think they are garbage design as well cause blizzard cant balance Tyrannical bosses, and let key scaling do the rest. Not that hard and dungeons are more balanced in the end. No rocket science. Since we get new dungeons every season now anyways we dont need additional garbage affixes because people might get “bored”. I get bored because affixes are garbage and ruin the experience.
Did you even think about new players? They already get overwhelmed by their own class. And when they see all the crap they have to deal with on slightly higher keys (10 key already begins) they wont bother.
Kiss/curse affixes are non optional. In the very same way not getting cleaved is. Let’s say the curse was “every enemy now has a cleave”. It’s not enough to just say “this set of mechanics is foundational”, because sanguine is foundational to mythic plus, as is grievous.
I listed 1 mechanic and 1 buff. Extrapolating that to every mechanic isn’t fair to what I said.
Many people have this attitude about a lot of things, but the key phrase in that is “have to” which I argue the answer is none. There’s no obligation to any of this. The things you want in life and games are often gated behind things you don’t want.
You want a gladiator mount? Guess what, PVP is required.
You want that sweet raid trinket? Doing large group content is required.
You want the hive mind? Brother, get ready for a full afternoon of random not fun stuff.
All that is taking yours and other PoV that affixes that offer no time benefit (because the curse is always a time suck and the kiss is always a way to go faster) are bad, which I fundamentally disagree with as I listed my weekly progression for affixes above.
I am tired of the affixes after 40+ keys that week and am ready for new ones. I don’t think the dungeons hold up for 500 repetitions without affixes. I do think tyrannical needs to be looked at, since no dungeon boss deserves to take 6 minutes.
I liked the changes we got in shadowlands to some of the most cruel affixes. I like the way the new affixes Sound, though the Jury is out because frequency matters and that’s not in the tooltips.
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Blizzard in a nutshell, they continue to bring in dumb ideas that the players hate.
All those things have less value when the game itself is becoming less enjoyable.
I really don’t know how people have become so conditioned into thinking games aren’t supposed to be fun.
I’ll say it again not that the point seems to sink with some people.
FUN and CHALLENGING are not mutually exclusive. A game, when it’s designed well, is absolutely supposed to be both.
Unfortunately, it’s painfully obvious that certain developers should have never even gotten past their initial job interview.
But you do realise you’re in the minority here, right? Hardly anyone enjoying affixes currently hence why there’s been such a huge lashback lately.
Well, that’s debatable. Shadowlands was a flop. BFA wasn’t popular from what I understand. Dragonflight didn’t get the sales it was expecting.
The same reason people stay in bad marriages. Too much time invested. Still clutching on to what the game was or could be.
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So only things you like are ‘good’ and ‘fun’? People who like things you don’t like are wrong for some reason? Have you ever considered getting looked at for narcissism?
I don’t tell people they should like what I like or they’re wrong. I just tell them that if they don’t find something fun they should probably opt out of doing it.
Just doing higher keys isn’t the same as having to manage new and different things. Having to keep track of necrotic stacks and preventing the tank from getting hit long enough to drop them is a specific type of challenge that isn’t replicated by just going higher. The positional requirements and target priorities that sanguine presents don’t exist just because you do a higher key. The affixes add unique problems that need to be solved by the group, and I find that fun. If people don’t, that’s fine. But maybe they should think about whether M+ is the activity they want to be spending their time on if they hate one of the foundational components of it.
The “won’t someone think of the children” is such a dumb argument. Some new players will try M+, be overwhelmed and not do it anymore. That’s okay. Not everything in the game is meant for everyone. Some of them will try it, be overwhelmed, and take some time to improve before trying again. Some of them will try it, find it fun, and keep doing it. It’s not like there’s a monolithic population of new players who are just some kind of hive mind that respond identically to everything in game.
Games are supposed to be fun. I’m having fun. Other people are having fun. Why do people think that if they’re not having fun with something they should be able to have it rebuilt according to their wants, even when other people are happy as it is, instead of just finding something to do that they actually enjoy?
This isn’t directed specifically at you, but more to everyone who expresses this. The game isn’t dying. The game isn’t objectively less enjoyable for every player. I’ve been hearing stuff like this since I started playing in 2008. Fifteen years later people are still saying it. If it was ever true, the game wouldn’t continue to have millions of subscribers year after year, and remain the gold standard of MMORPGs. If you don’t find it fun, and you think it’s not enjoyable, then you are free to go find something you’d like better. I have no understanding of why so many people seem to obsessively play a game they ostensibly hate. If I ever felt the way about the game that it seems some of you do, you wouldn’t fine me on the forums complaining about it. I would just stop playing, stop posting, and find something I’d rather do.
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The problem here is that fun and challenging are based on personal preferences and we’re all different as players. For example, I don’t find the Souls games to be any fun at all in-part because of their challenge, but I can’t sit here and say that I’m in the majority on that given how much they sell. I’m comfortable with saying they’re not for me and moving on.
Personally, I am finding M+ to be less fun than I used to. I don’t know if that’s a function of getting bored with the game or that’s a function of a lot of things blatantly being designed to be as irritating as humanly possible. In that regard… surprise! I find the new dungeon design/mechanics and affixes to be supremely irritating in concert with each other, and I’m not even bothering with high-level keys anymore. I’ll do it on my main just for the sake of gear to help with raids, but I’m not putting myself through that crap with alts. Low level keys are fine and they’re fun. The high level key experience isn’t. Not to me anyway.
The questions are… how many other people feel that way, and is it actually affecting participation or sub counts? For a game that you purchase with little to no online component… it doesn’t matter. As long as you buy the game, that’s all that matters. For a game like this however with a persisting online component, with a requirement to find other players to run this kind of content, it absolutely matters if it’s causing people to drop off or not run high-level keys. Only Blizzard can really assess that with data/metrics.
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