Judgment in Shadowlands

While Ret is one of the specs that I’ve been playing longer than almost any other, I found myself in legion, and especially BFA, unable to force myself to play ret for any extended amount of time. After giving it more thought, and hearing from other people about why they find ret’s playstyle to be unengaging, I’ve come to the conclusion that Ret suffers more than anything from a lack of interactivity between its abilities. At its core, all your doing as a ret paladin is generating and spending holy power. There isn’t much to ret’s gameplay outside of purely building and spending. I think judgment could be reworked to provide some sort of interaction between other abilities in Ret’s kit to make the playstyle a bit more interesting. My idea is as follows:

Judgment no longer generates holy power, but empowers the next ability you cast to have a significant bonus effect, depending on the ability, focused on applying a new mechanic that benefits either Single target or AoE.

since we know we’re getting consecration back baseline in Shadowlands, lets start with that, since this ability is in essence just a fire and forget damage puddle slapped on into our already haphazardly cobbled together rotation. When empowered by Judgment, Consecration becomes Radiance. The paladin radiates light for X seconds, dealing ticking holy damage to all enemies within X yards of the paladin (this is essentially a consecration that moves with the paladin, similar to the glyph we had in WoD). While radiance is active, each cast of divine storm increases the damage of Radiance by X% (think gathering storm for frost DKs). This adds some usability to a spell that otherwise just sits on the ground and gets walked out of in AoE, or otherwise is just a holy power filler in single target, and creates an incentive to play the usage of holy power on divine storms within the radiance window to ramp up our aoe damage, rather than just mindlessly casting divine storm because its our aoe button and we have literally nothing else to care about in AoE.

Templar’s Verdict: empowering Templar’s Verdict with judgment causes templar’s verdict to leave a dot on the target, dealing holy damage over X seconds. Casting crusader strike and blade of wrath on the target extend the duration of the dot by X seconds per holy power generated. subsequent casts of templar’s verdict increase the damage of the dot by X%, either up to a cap, or with no cap and the damage being limited to how long you can extend the dot. This provides further synergy to both our single target spender and our builders, giving them some other function that just holy power generation and adding a secondary goal to our abilitis other than just dealing flat damage.

These are just shower thoughts, and there are probably more interesting things that could be done, but personally I feel I would enjoy playing with a mechanic like this. I think Ret desperately needs some interaction between its abilities to make it feel like there’s a purpose to what we’re doing, other than just pressing our do damage buttons in order.

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Yes! It’s exactly what i’ve been saying since the start of legion. Most other specs have really high syneegy within their own spec like how Blizzard for frost mage provides each tick to reduces the cooldown of frozen orb by 1sec or 0.5sec and having a low cooldown. Also each enemy hit by frozen orb provides fingers of frost proc for icelance. Do we even have an abiloty that comes close on synergy? All I can think about is judgement increasing damage of our next holy power and that’s a weak synergy.

Ret is mostly basic when compared to other spec, even arms have more synergy than ret.

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No I’d prefer Judgement to continue to generate holy power.

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In this scenario you’d basically be forced into having to only cast judgment at 4 holy power because its empowering your TV, and casting subsequent spenders will prolong that empowered effect, so you’d want to be banking Holy Power before you judge anyway. If this mechanic were a thing, judgment would likely be a longer cooldown to avoid just having a perma buffed ability, and the lack of HP generation would be much less noticeable because you’re not casting it as frequently

I don’t want a return of Legion rets Colossal Smash. Plus you want a way to build holy power at range, especially in pvp.

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So you hated legion ret but want us to be legion ret again with that judgment debuff window? I say no, I hate that playstyle.

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It’s not at all the same. In this case the buff is on you. The closest thing to legion would be the TV interaction, but even then it’s not nearly as restrictive. And this wouldn’t necessarily be 100% uptime either so you wouldn’t be constrained to only using spenders while judgment is up

So I think we should get the seal system back. Seals was something that gave our judgment that extra bit from either using seal of wisdom or blood. It would change what our abilities and judgements did. And I think we should get them back.

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Seals were dank

Seals for Ret 2020

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No we dont need seals back, its a bad system; if we want something like how seals work we can just work it with Holy Power.

Buffs are non-dispellable lasting 8 sec
All abilities cost 3 Holy Power & Baseline

Templar’s Verdict- dmg then buff: next Holy Power ability strike another time = to 50% of its dmg or Heals for another 50%.

Divine Storm - AoE dmg then buff: next holy power ability strikes 3 more enemies or allies for Word of Glory

Holy Strike - dmg & heal for an amount = to 10% AP for each enemy strike, and 50% of the heal to 3 nearby allies.

Justicar’s Vengeance - dmg then buff: Causes the next Holy Power ability to apply a Buff or Debuff
-heals applies buff: heals for 20% of the Pally’s AP whenever dmg is taken.
-dmg abilities applies debuff: take 10% of dmg done

Righteous Strike - dmg then buff: reduce all dmg by 5% for every enemy strike and an additional 5% if used after another Holy Power ability, consuming the buff.

Divine Smite - 15 yrd dmg then buff: next holy power ability DoT for 10% of AP or HoT for 10% of AP (Holy Strike & Word of Glory); Dot & Hot last 8 sec.

Holy power is garbage. If I wanted combo points I’d play rogue.

Seals and I’d go as far as three judgments. Like we used to have.

And all specs should have blessings. Did I forget my lessons on how to buff people when I picked up a shield?

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You can always go play classic if you want a stale auto attack play style.

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Let’s just agree that we all disagree. Some want holy power, some want seals, some want mobility, some want defense, some want healing, some want range,…
Let’s just wait and see, what blizz will give us.
My guess: same rubbish as currently, slapped with auras on top.
My hope: at least some mechanical tweaks and talents that are worth the name.

Seals aren’t just a ret thing in my books.

And three different utility judgments is not a bad idea.

Of course, if you’re just talking pvp, then maybe not, but judgment of wisdom was fabulous in raids.

Paladin in general in classic was boring af, there’s a reason I didn’t roll one.

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Well, you should reconsider your main for the next expansion, because they said there would be no major overhaul, because obviously they are extra lazy at this point.

But yeah the only good judgement for ret in pvp was the justice one to stop people having more than 100% movement speed, negating sprints. But a lot of classes now have charge, dash and leap, kinda making the judgement half useful as it was in wotlk.

So if this judgment mechanic was to be re-introduced into the game it would be necessary to tweak the mechanic to something along the line of; if an enemy use a dash, charge, leap ability while having the judgement of justice effect on them, it pull them back to the paladin. So it has 0 effects on pve, but makes the judgement really good considering how poor mobility for pvp.

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Paladins don’t need more buttons, especially not of the passive kind. Most of that so called utility can just be baked in and some of it is absolutely pointless. Like seal/Judgement of Wisdom. Mana hasn’t been a resource for several years(not just for paladins), and that’s not likely to change. I don’t even know why ret still has Blessing of Wisdom, its redundant at this point.

Now that ret does have a snare, this kind of thing is no longer necessary or useful.

I mean what good does having multiple Judgements do. Wisdom is pointless, as mana isn’t an issue, Justice again is pointless as already mentioned. That leaves what, damge and healing, and if you want Judgment to heal, you don’t need to have an extra button to do that. Just have it be able to be cast on friendlies that does a heal.

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At least for me it wouldn’t require a complete overhaul, just some tweaks here and there. On the other hand, I often hear that argument (no overhaul planned), but don’t believe it, if blizz really wants ro focus back on classes and not specs.
They will have to overhaul A LOT if we get shared class abilities back, they will also have to make new talents in place of talents which are going to be baseline again (e.g Hammer of Wrath) and talents which will be deleted completely (looking at things like Divine Judgment).

That said I am holding my breath (and my money) until alpha/beta. I will not play another expac with this Legion/BfA ret garbage. I just log in occasionally at this point and I won’t pay for a game I play 2 or 3 hours a week because I can’t stand (any) class design. Most of my friends stopped playing, so if I don’t get a good reason to buy SL I won’t.

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Seals were not an auto attack play style

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Buffing yourself so your auto attacks do a little more, oh and Judgement too.

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Seals buffed your auto attack and then were consumed on judgement. How is that engaging?

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