Reading all of this makes me realize how mangled the Derek Proudmoore plot point really is. If the Horde story focused more on things like the wave incident, the purge of Dalaran, and all the times in BfA where Jaina’s beaten back the Horde army and it’s champions (and taken no significant damage in the process), there’d be a compelling argument for wanting some sort of weapon to be able to take her down. Conventional means clearly won’t work on her, and suddenly we have her (somehow still intact) undead brother to work with. Yeah, there’s a debate to be had about the ethics of using him as a weapon and what not, but the alternative is just letting Jaina run around and seemingly do whatever she wants.
Naturally, the debate we get is 100% “this is evil and dishonorable” and 0% “Maybe the superpowered mage needs to be dealt with before she goes on to assault another city”. So of course Baine is 100% correct and now everyone has to be friends with Jaina for the rest of the expansion (and probably WoW).
They actually are bringing this up. Problem with this one is they’ve painted their representative Sunreaver as overwhelmed by revenge as Jaina was:
Jaina: Then your vendetta is with me, and me alone!
Magister Hathorel: No! You will watch your friends die–just as I did!
Magister Hathorel: Rangers! Kill them all! FOR THE SUNREAVERS!
It’s an unfortunate mirror of what Pellex summarized above:
So it isn’t that it’s a 100% correct situation, just the percent that is against her will also be against the players, like Leyara represented resentment against Malfurion back in Cataclysm, but also was against the players.
Haven’t seen anyone else mention it yet but leaving out the ethics involved, this was also a pre fail. When Baine rescues him and brings him to Jaina, her immediate reaction is thinking it’s a trap by Sylvanas anyways and is about to kill him.
She also immediately dropped her guard as soon as Derek started talking and needed very little convincing that Derek wasn’t a trap. Would be very easy to fool Jaina with a mind washed Derek.
I mean, if you’re going to make Derek a trap, then you wouldn’t make his brainwashing a well known public event. So either more ridiculous writing, or there was no brainwashing at all and the plan was something else or a misdirection to distract from the real plan.
Baine being there wasn’t what got Jaina to drop that magic she looked ready to start throwing, it was Derek telling her that he was still her brother. If she’s that willing. eager even, to believe him, manipulating her with a brainwashed Derek would’ve been like taking candy from a baby.
As an aside, I like that dagger he has at his waist and the way the scene puts it right there in front of us while Derek is talking Jaina down. Perfect for Proudmoore stabbing if/when we find out Sylvanas had anticipated Baine trying to rescue Derek.
I find it very telling that the presence of Baine–who, let’s remember, is still a racial leader of the Horde–reassured Jaina that she could relax and trust the whole situation. What is wrong with this picture?!
I contest that the critical purpose Baine fulfilled could have been filled by nearly anyone else. Did you notice how quick Jaina went from 1 to 11 and back to 1 again? Jaina wasn’t thinking logically, she was thinking emotionally.
Logically, Jaina would have no reason to trust anything Derek says. Jaina has no idea how long he’s been prisoner to Sylvanas, and he outright admits she was attempting to bend him to her will. Jaina is very familiar with how undeath twists a person’s nature into being something their not, but she immediately takes Derek at his word that he’s still her brother.
That’d be like if Liam Greymane’s body had been found, resurrected into undeath, and then after spending a few weeks as Sylvanas’ guest, was returned to his father and was immediately accepted by Genn as his son. Genn wouldn’t have been thinking logically, but the idea that he’d just accept that his son is “alive” and was returned to him is ludicrous. He’d have been suspicious as to what Sylvanas was planning. Man that’d have been so much better, if Sylvanas had resurrected Liam rather then Derek…
It was emotional thinking. Derek, mind controlled or not, could play Jaina like a fiddle, appealing to her sense of family. The only part Baine played was that he got Derek and Jaina within thirty meters of each other. Baine only ever says he is “returning one who is lost”, Derek is the one who claims to have been rescued before Sylvanas managed to twist him to her will. All that needed to be done to convince Jaina to accept Derek was to get them talking.
This reminds me of all the analysis people had of teasers of the burning of Teldrassil. “Her stance looks like one of someone who is surprised. She couldn’t have burned the tree, at least not intentionally.” “We just saw a clip of the burning cinematic and Sylvanas’ expression is one of shock! Confirmed that Sylvanas does not burn down the tree!”
If that does happen, I think it’s likely the Derek will “try” to kill Jaina, mind controlled or not. The same way Thomas Zelling almost killed his family. Can’t have Jaina wanting peace to much, we still need her to hate the Horde just enough for the next expansion.
This whole thing started because Jaina been a predictable psychological punching bag. But how much physical pain has she been though aside from having a necklace ripped off, which she took like a racking gut shot. It’s a little tiring and boring see this Superman like character with no kryptonite, never bleed.
Unless she became like Injustice’s Superman, which is a good read I suggest. Maybe it’s because it’s marketed to kids to teens, but we could have some really good writing if that weren’t the case.
I predict Jaina will come out of this like Superman. Anduin will marry Taelia Fordragon because she’s also Calia Menethil daughter. They have a little reunion. Lich King and light forged undead. Because that the stories that hereditary dictatorships thrive after and on to the next expansion.
Maybe I’m getting to smart for this game. I haven’t played in 6 months and I’m already predicting the end.
Well, to be fair a lot of the Sylvanas arguments came from that dumb interview with some real stupid responses by Blizz made before Warbringers.
Specifically:
Travis: That’s a cool idea, but I do think that, and it’s just the way it’s been represented so far. As we closer and closer to launch, we are going to have some of those that fill in the blanks as you play through the siege of Lordaeron and such, I think it will tell you the story that it’s even-handed. I think we want to end up in a place where the Horde can make an argument that the Alliance started it and vice versa, as is the lead of all conflicts.
But, is she acting in a cruel, mustache-twirling evil way? Not really, she’s just trying to defend her people.
Emphasis on the bold. Does anyone unironically think the Alliance started the war? I could have bought Stormheim as a plausible reason for the war starting. I could have bought Teldrassil being a response to a preemptive attack on the Horde for all the various things they’ve done. If either of those happened, I could believe the stance where each side could rightfully blame the other. But that’s not what happened. The Horde definitively, illustrated by the narrative as well, is the aggressor here and Sylvanas is 100% “acting in a cruel, mustache-twirling evil way”.
Which makes the statements made by Blizzard just bold faced lies. And with the expansion being over half-way complete, I have zero faith Blizzard can remedy it in any believable way.
I don’t know what you’re talking about, this is clearly true. Those filthy Night Elves living in that tree making a mockery of undeath. They were clearly asking for it.
And the fact that Baine was there to confirm it. Her immediate reaction was to kill Derek. We have no idea how she would have reacted if her brother would have appeared as an undead by himself without any sort of notification from Baine or acknowledgement that what he is doing is actually disobeying Sylvanas. My speculation, based on her immediate reaction, is she would have likely killed him without the parley setting with someone such as Baine - whom has a relation with being honest towards Jaina - that it was not a trap. You can downplay Baines presence all you like, but the fact that he has a prior relationship with informing Jaina about things such as Theramore before they happened, building a certain level of trust with her, being the one who called a parley, having done so behind Sylvanas back no less, provides all the context needed for her to “drop her guard” once her brother begins speaking to confirm Baine isn’t lying.
Alright, I respect that. I’d argue further on it, but I can’t take my speculations much further without going into headcanon.
What can I say, hope springs eternal.
And then Sylvanas kidnaps Calia. She lures Anduin into a trap, then douses him with some kind of gas, a hallucinogenic unbeknownst to him. He finds Sylvanas, and in the interest of ending the war, fights her. He somehow manages to kill her, until the hallucinogenic wears off and it turns out it was Calia he just killed…
It’ll surprise me if Derek isn’t a sleeper agent for Sylvanas. Even more surprising if Jaina anticipates that her initial hunch is still correct and guesses or thwarts the attempted subterfuge.