Just like the Blue Warchief thing and the Sylvanas “twist”, I will never let Blizzard forget it.
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The undead are lead by an intelligent master, they are not intelligent by themselves. They’re a locust swarm. They’re a danger because they do not eat, sleep, become fatigued or die from physical conditions (bleeding, bad climates, disease, et cetra.) and each thing they kill becomes a force multiplier against the enemy, like cancer.
As they were presented in WC3, in the context you provided, Jaina’s ability suited the situation but that’s hardly a feat of legend.
The Doomhammer was literally a gift of the elements themselves. They’re primordial entities. I’d count the object as something of great potential, much like the staff of the Thunder King.
She fought the best the Horde had to offer and the Zandalari. And I’m going to repeat the ‘unharmed’ comment, because she did. If she can walk, talk and more or less act unimpeded, her wounds are superficial at best. Mekkatorque fought the same forces and was so wounded that he had to be locked in cryo.
If she were, say, crippled and in a wheelchair, down a limb, bedridden or entrapped in ice to prevent herself from perishing from internal injury, I’d say that’s ‘wounded’, but as it is, she got off scott free, regardless of the presence of healers.
She ‘is’ always right, though. Were that she was wrong and when she genuinely believed that she were right, I’d rule her out, but she is incapable of wrong, even if there are lessers who disagree with her. That’s still Mary Sue territory.
When? When has she been wrong? Even her warhawk stances are justified in the current context.
Theramoore didn’t fall because of her shortcomings. She wasn’t there before the bomb dropped and the forces there were unable to fulfill their duty of ousting invaders. Failing would mean that she fought as hard as she could, did everything that she could and still it wasn’t enough.
Being removed from leadership of Dalaran was of her own volition.
She also went to jail of her own volition, because a simple cell with steel bars isn’t going to keep a mage tucked away.
The only time she failed was to bring the Kul Tirans back into the fold and that one, debatably, isn’t her fault either. They sent someone who had animosity with the Kul Tirans to begin with, to open political discussions.
I’m seeing the story in its entirety from Warcraft 3 to World of Warcraft. The fact of the matter is, she’s had a sweet run of things. She can blame herself for things that have happened, but honestly, it wasn’t her fault.
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Where is this stated?
Also, according to “A Good War” and “Elegy”, Sylvanas is on par with Malfurion and Tyrande (at least, they and she seemed to think so).
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First the horde doesn’t have anyone that strong except Sylvanas. This was stated in good war, also Thrall at his current state is not strong atleast from what we have seen. Voljin’s power level is unknown. Surfang was nothing more then a grunt to Malfurion, how or why you bring him up is beyond me. Also he got knocked out by Genn in seige of undercity.
The fact that people flipping out about tyrande night warrior mode not 1 shooting everyone shows how bad it is. How can the horde put up a fight if they said Tyrande + Malfurion could stop the entire horde army? this was before night warrior power up and not including Jaina. Jaina + Tyrande + Malfurion can win this war and there is nothing the horde can do, by blizzard logic.
If you don’t think that is a issue then i do not know what to say.
The other issue is, the alliance has alot more characters. They are also very strong like Alleria & Turalyon, again I do not think the horde has anyone comparable to them minus Sylvanas. Plus alliance still have super weapons like Vindicaar and Dalaran that are not used.
If blizzard used every asset they have given the alliance vs every asset they have given the horde. It would not even be a contest. Already the horde PC runs away from alliance heros and they undo all their efforts in the war campaign.
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The Horde has Rexxar.
Rexxar
Hes vowed to keep the witch in line and I believe him. Sure he’s in the shadows these days but he’s the Hordes trump card. Even bloody and broken the Horde most greatest strength is the ability to fight back even on the precipice of defeat.
Not exactly very clever story wise buts its all that the Horde could be seen in a positive unbias light nowadays….thanks to the writers.
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I mean, trying to make out like the Horde are somehow winners of Darkshore or this exchange in general is pretty absurd. You feel like a jobber as the Horde player.
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So, your contention is that a swarm of undead heading towards somebody is no big deal? Really. A bit of stretch at best.
There is literally nothing to indicated it has that significant of a power level. That is all head cannon on your part.
A small group, and she was not alone.
Seriously? So, if someone took a baseball bat to you, breaking a few ribs, breaking your arm, giving you a concussion and requiring stitches you could still walk, talk and largely act unimpeded. Oh, you would hurt and you would be have to be careful of strenuous activities for a while. But you would literally be able to do everything Jaina does post raid. So, those would qualify as superficial? I wouldn’t. And that is not even factoring healers in.
And he was also alone. Plus he stayed longer.
So, you have basically have killed her for you to count it as wounded. You have a rather extreme view of wounding.
So, I should ask you how Nathanos faced off with Tyrande (someone WAY above his power) and got away scotch free? He didn’t even talk about being hurt. Do you feel like he falls under the same criteria you are claiming Jaina has? His was a more extreme case.
So, you are saying she was right to keep the Horde out of Dalaran? That is what she wanted to do.
Or was she right when she wanted to dismantle the Horde?
Or was she right when she thought Thrall would help reign Garrosh in?
You know she was a pretty strong advocate for peace before Garrosh nuked her city. The fact she reversed her view of the Horde is evidence that she was wrong. Both view can’t be right.
But she did. She fought, she tried and she failed.
Because she was giving up. Her mental state was not in a good place. Plus do you really think they did not plan on what it would take to hold here. The world has shown us there are ways to limit mages.
Yes it was. She pulled the Alliance away from Theramore and let the Horde have her father. That is the whole reason Kul Tiras left the Alliance.
Sweet run?! Are you crazy. Seriously, she has had a really terrible time. She has suffered more than most of the notable NPCs.
Didn’t have anyone that Sylvanas could use that could face the most powerful Alliance character.
And you missed my point. I know Saurfang is not on par with Malfurion. But, in his lane his is the top dog. My point is that the Horde has lots of ‘shiny’ things. They have notable and significant characters.
No, people are upset that in lore she was way more powerful than Nathanos before the ritual. Then she gets a power up and somehow is only an equal match for him. He is snarky and holds her off like it was not that big of a thing. And he never even suggest he was hurt at all by her. Where Jaina specifically talks about still recovering while facing a small group of the Horde, yes champions but still a small group. By your reasoning here Nathonos is more in the Mary Sue territory than Jaina.
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I think Catori was referring to the numbers of Horde soldiers Tyrande and Malfurion were compared to in A Good War, but I’m not sure:
- “You wanted to launch the attack in three weeks, High Overlord,” she said.
“That was when I believed we needed to handle Tyrande and Malfurion. Now we only need to contain one of them,” he replied. “We’ll have a few less soldiers ready for the fight, but we’ll still outnumber the night elves—eight‐to‐one instead of twelve‐to‐one.”
In A Good War Sylvanas did not think she could take both of them, and was not even confident she could take one of them:
- Sylvanas Windrunner took a deep breath and then hissed it out in frustration. “If we have no other options, I will handle them myself.”
Saurfang said nothing for a while. It was a bad idea, but at the moment, it was the best one they had.
Saurfang and Sylvanas had discussed strategy and tactics for days, and it had become clear that there were two huge, inescapable points of failure in their plan: Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande Whisperwind. The leaders of the night elves were powerful, dangerous, and perhaps even unbeatable on the field of battle. No matter how surprised the kaldorei would be by this attack, those two would be a terror for the Horde once the fighting began. They had lived for so long, and survived so much, that Saurfang had to consider the possibility that they could hold off the Horde long enough for the Alliance to send help. Ashenvale was their land, after all. They would rally nature itself to their cause.
Sylvanas could match one of them—perhaps—but even she knew that taking them on by herself was . . . not an ideal tactic.
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It wasn’t just Nathonos, the valkir were empowering him. Also this is my point about having DBZ power lvl characters in the allaince and not the horde. Not only is nathonos part of every horde quest chain(almost) because horde lacks characters. They also had to shoe horn him into that situation, because horde has no one strong.
Honestly no one other then the warchief who would be removed from the horde soon.
Only way it would work would be if multiple horde characters fought her lost and ran away. Thank the lord that didn’t happen, As a horde player I’m sick of running away from allaince hero’s and getting out done by the alliance counter part through out the war campaign.
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It is a big deal, but not to someone who can cast fireballs. It’s not sticking things with a spear or hacking them to pieces with a sword, it’s physically destroying them with explosions (or, in this case, being frozen and broken into pieces.).
There’s no measure of its power, but its a literal creation of the elements. The Titans may be beings of creation, but the Light, the Void and the Elements spawned from the formation of the two are just as timeless as they are. You don’t have to see primary and secondary stats on something as if it were an in-game item to know that thing has the potential to be devastating.
A baseball bat- or even a dozen of them- do not compare to weapons specifically designed to maim and kill. Broken bones are a huge mercy in comparison to getting struck with an axe or ran through with a sword. Having both had these bones broken and having a keen understanding of how these weapons are made, why and how they’re wielded, being struck with one of them once is enough to put a man into bed for an extensive period and require a copious amount of physical therapy to even care for. There is a reason armor was designed and it wasn’t just for fashion.
He had mechanised soldiers with him the whole time. He might have been the only living thing there, but if ‘killer robots’ isn’t a good sell for reliable backup, I don’t know what is.
My view of wounding is rather fair, given how extreme and highly lethal wounds were. A man that wasn’t bed ridden and stuck going to the bathroom in a bowl is a guy who got out pretty well in the middle ages. My expectations aren’t that she should die, but rather, she should be completely off the board and a non-issue henceforth for quite some time.
As for Nathanos; Nathanos isn’t a living creature. He doesn’t suffer pain, dismemberment wouldn’t kill him (save for maybe the head) and he’s a marksman from a good distance away. Tyrande has her work cut out for her. He could even deliberately throw himself on her sword to get her to stop efficiently swinging and engage her when she can’t retaliate.
This isn’t to say he shouldn’t had gotten off basically free (the encounter between them was rather poorly put together), but injuries don’t really matter to a non-living organism. He has nothing to heal or recover. He is outside of the cycle of life and death. Jaina is a living human being and has all of the shortcomings of the human condition.
If your follow-up question is if I think Nathanos is a Mary Sue; I genuinely think so, but that was never up for debate, I think the same of much of the Warcraft cast.
Morally, it’s an abhorrent thing to think so, but given that BFA happened, it turns out she was right all along. Just like pops.
It’s not much of a failure if she succeeded in ousting the Horde (or, more accurately, believed victory because they signaled the retreat because the strategy was to get everyone of importance in one location.) only for an unexpected bomb to drop on top of them. That was the job of Baldruc (and the person who succeeded him after his death) to see this threat coming.
In the end, that’s assigning herself survivor’s guilt, which is, while perfectly human, is also not her fault.
And the answer to bring them back into the fold is to send the person who they hate the most as a diplomat between the Alliance and Kul Tiras? That is totally not her fault. That was a poor decision.
She’s survived where everyone else should have died and without consequences (placed upon her by the situation, not what she’s put upon herself.)
This one’s actually in your defense, the Horde does actually have characters that can repel Tyrande and Malfurion, such as Rommath and Thalyssra. They just sort of forget they exist until they need a voice of reason (or in Rommath’s case, someone with authority to look pretty).
This one’s against your favor. The Horde narrative does not. There is Thrall (who is retired and effectively gone from the story save for occasional visits), Saurfang (who has more or less lost all of his bite as the Punisher™ from his olden days), Baine (who does… basically nothing and can do nothing?) and Sylvanas (which is where we are now). Vol’jin is dead, on the other side and can’t really do anything as a ghost, so he doesn’t really count.
Thalyssra doesn’t really do anything in the Horde storyline other than serve as a mediator to hamfistedly say; ‘We ShOuLd WoRk ToGeThEr!’.
Rommath doesn’t get any story, period.
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Yes, isn’t that what I stated? She’s pretty explicit that she almost certainly couldn’t take them together, but figures she had a shot against one of them. Similarly, when he goes to face her, Malfurion sends his farewells to Tyrande in case he doesn’t make it. Then when the fight is described it seems like quite a pitched battle between them.
I believe the poster I was responded to had suggested that the Horde had no one in that league. I was merely pointing out that they have at least one character, Sylvanas. Except she hardly counts as Horde now, since we are clearly going to be siding against her.
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Perhaps I mistook what you stated, as I read (emphasis mine):
In Elegy Malfurion does send his farewells, that is true. But after having sent that missive, he also has the following scene as he goes out to meet Sylvanas head on:
- Malfurion Stormrage shifted his shape, tossing the stag’s antlered head as his hooves traveled swiftly over stone and grass. He followed the ugly thrum of dark power wafting through the air. If he slew her, the city would still fall—but it would be more easily retaken with the Horde in disarray.
And part of him wanted her to pay for what she had done.
I give your post a like because of this comment that I agree with, though.
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I suppose that would be true if you were looking at it from a purely faction standpoint. However, in my mind I was including other op characters from the Warcraft universe, including Azshara, Kil’jaeden, Arthas, Medivh, Gul’dan, Illidan, Aegwynn, ect ect.
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Also I disagree Thrall is not a Mary Sue, maybe that was true in cata. However since then he has been more flawed(powers & decisions). I mean he is depowered doesn’t know what he wants, ran and hid away. He made poor decisions in MOP/WOD/Legion, his powers have not been reliable since either. He is the only character in warcraft who’s powers disappeared over night.
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#JustShamanProblems
Can’t recall any other shaman having this issue.
Well, there was every shaman on Azeroth (canonically, anyway; they couldn’t really apply it to players in-game) experiencing intermittent problems or outright loss of their powers leading up to and during the Shattering. For as long as it lasted, that was a pretty sudden thing.
The elements not listening has been used as a source of weakness for shamans before; sometimes it’s been because the spirits refused to listen to an individual for charatcer-specific reasons, other times it’s been because the elements are refusing to listen to anyone at all because they’re freaking out about something.
Even the pale orcs came from generations of orcish shamans-in-training suddenly losing their powers and being abandoned completely by the spirits after failing to prove themselves worthy during the pilgrimage to Oshu’gun.
As a “sapient” magical source where elemental spirits can agree or refuse to help the caster, shamanism inherently comes with the caveat that if those spirits can sense that your resolve and confidence have faltered, they can potentially withhold their aid. It goes without saying that they can turn away from outright selfish and malicious individuals who seek to abuse their power on purpose, but even a selfless and well-meaning shaman wielding such power while wracked by guilt and self-doubt might inadvertently do something just as dangerous with it.
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The meta reason why humans have generally been good at arcane magic should be obvious to everyone. Humans have as a rule been good at two thing in WoW, light magic and arcane magic. Meta wise, human mages were a thing long before even Silvermoon was a concept in the devs eyes.
Jaina, consequently, as a character is the peak human mage. Even in Warcraft 3 it was predicted she would be the greatest human mage in all of history and now she is finally at that point, something that has taken the game a good 15 years to get to.
Ultimately, I think people like Jaina, Thrall(yes he is bound to get his power back/become prominent again), Tyrande, Velen, Malfurion etc are about the same powerlevels.
I mean those are external influence. Like the shattering or void magic as seen in lore. Other classes have this issue like mages being unable to cast/teleport
But Thrall situation is weird, he feels guilt and can’t communicate with the spirits… kind of lazy writing, I don’t even get why it was needed. Thrall being op could of been offset by malfurion tryanda or Jaina.
I felt like Jaina was always the strongest mage. However the power level of mages has increased a lot in the 15 years.