Jaina is a hypocrite complaining about a bomb

Today I learned that a camp with a population of 10 tauren was a massacre everyone, despite being evacuated beforehand.

Except they weren’t evacuated, but please carry on.

Theramore, Stonetalon, Southshore, Gilneas and Teldrassil where 50 000 unknowing civilians where burnt to death pale in comparison to the atrocity known as Taurajo, where ~7 tauren soldiers died protecting their camp.

Wait, there were 50,000 NPCs in those cities? I mean, you’re referring to NPCs, right? That’s why you insist Taurajo only had 7 Tauren in it?

So really, Sylvanas killed… what? 7 guys in Southshore? 25 or so in Teldrassil? Wow, if we’re only counting NPCs it really IS no big deal!

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In terms of Camp Taurejo, you’re both wrong. The tauren did not get a chance to evac, this is true. But we learn on Alliance side that the General in charge, who is killed by the Horde PC later, left holes in the lines so that the civilians could escape through. However, what he didn’t know was that there was a tribe of quillboar in the same direction the civilians went, and so they were killed anyway. It’s actually one of the better examples of some actually grey writing when it comes to the faction conflict.

This thread’s somewhat riddled with misconceptions and twisting of lore, which is generally to be expected. People should keep in mind that this is the exact sort of mindset the writer’s want, in order to distract players from the fact that the end to this story is already pre-written, and it’s a retread of one we already had.

In terms of hypocrisy, as per the initial post, no that’s not really how it works. Jaina is one of the more fleshed out characters in WoW, despite the (often really odd) hate she gets. The line she says is completely logical, as the Mana Bomb was an incredibly traumatic moment for her, one that literally marked her for life in a way she can see every time she looks in a mirror. Everything she’d worked towards was erased, her friends literally destroyed in front of her to the point that there weren’t even bodies to bury. Given that the scene takes place right outside the ruins of Theramore, her comment is probably 99% purely emotional in terms of reaction.

In terms of the argument of whether or not Theramore was justified, at this point in time, they were at war. This was after the Shattering, after the Horde had already started their campaign, and Theramore was still part of the Alliance. However, the bulk of the forces seen in the Barrens were not Theramore troops, though some were present in Durotar (these are not the same troops as those pre-Cata, those were marooned Kul Tiran troops that were holdouts, not loyal to Jaina. Certainly that gives credence to the idea that it’s a legitimate target, but the Horde didn’t capture it. Instead they simply obliterated it, serving no purpose beyond using their shiny new weapon.

The attack on the Zandalari, however, was surgical. There were cases in the raid of civilians actively attacking the Alliance forces, and thus killed, but the Alliance troops by and large go through the defenses, kill the king (after offering him a chance to surrender) and then fall back. Jaina even explicitly says to not press the advantage. Also, as per the war campaign, the attack on Zandalar was only enacted in full after the Horde used Zandalar as a striking point to hit Boralus. The Alliance just had countermeasures in place, this time.

All this said, however, I’ll reiterate that this comes down to poor writing. The faction war itself was solved at the end of MoP, which lorewise wasn’t even more than two years ago. The writers just want us to think everyone on the Horde and the Alliance developed amnesia.

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Words like “surgical strike” turn up in modern propaganda when the people involved don’t want you to look too closely at what might have actually happened. In war there really is no such thing. It’s ugly and things go sideways as a matter of course and civilians always pay the price.

Offering him a chance to surrender is such a pile of steaming garbage. “Give me what I want or I’ll kill you and it’s your own fault” is some major deflection of responsibility for what is about to happen. This is a demand from a position of dominance that is a part of “might makes right”, not diplomacy nor humanitarianism. It’s nothing more than window dressing an overt act of violence by the provocateur.

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This right here is the Canon dialogue, the alliance were there first and the horde perspective is a 2nd hand account of the event. It’s entirely reasonable but of course no king would bend to an invader

the alliance literally kept slaves of the orcs from the first and second war.
If the argument is that oh well orcs attacked humans so they can use them as slaves. Well alliance and horde are already at a war so burning a city to the ground may be barbaric, but its definitely no more a war crime than using slaves or abandoning the high elves in their times of need when arthas was storming their gates, which, you know, caused all this to begin with. The horde is filled with mostly people seeking refuge from alliance persecution

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The orcs were genocidal brutes from another world, it was either put them in camps or kill them all as there was no known way back then to send them home. The alliance of lorderon chose to spare their lives and some of the jail keepers took advantage of this

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but this is kinda the problem with the alliance narrative i find.

If an orc does bad stuff then they say only good horde is a dead horde

if an alliance member does bad stuff the argument is only that individual is bad, those bad jail keepers, garithos was a bad captain or w/e his rank was. Medievh was being controlled by other forces (kinda similar to the way orcs were controlled by fel blood to be so aggresive anyways) so he’s still a good guy. Yet the orcs are all bad people. Even now jaina is saying how she was too naive and now she won’t be nice to any horde she sees anymore.

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Medivh was corrupted from birth yet still managed to galvanise the people of azeroth into fighting together against the burning legion but he was also the one that brought the original orcish horde to azeroth.

Jaina tried for most of her life to foster peace between the alliance and horde, standing aside as her father was killed to make sure thrall horde went free, making sure the horde were a part of efforts to stop threats against azeroth and always arguing for the existence of the horde. All she got in return was her city obliterated from all possible time lines, her friends reduced to dust and her work was all for nothing.

The horde, up until their warchief be it garrosh or sylvanas went against what the horde stood for, were solidly behind their leader. I’m all for fighting for the right to be a part of azeroth, not for plaguing innocents and obliterating cities

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That is a matter of perspective. The two factions are at war, i wouldn’t consider them to be innocent. if they wanted to be innocent they would declare neutrality and stay out of the war. You say the civilians are innocent, but who provides food for the soldiers, who makes their weapons and equipment? who trains the men/women to fight in this war?

Showing your enemy mercy is not necessarily a virtue.

I think because this is a video game thats why people can talk fantasize about honor. They criticize sylvanas for not doing what an honorable heroine should do. But she is no heroine. She is a military leader.

sometimes i hear stories of real soldiers have problems re-socializing into society because they felt that they did some f$#%ed up sh!t while at war, and i think that’s completely normal, war is traumatizing, war is ugly and dirty.
Just because propaganda from your country says you are doing the right thing doesn’t making killing another living human being FEEL right. Definitely doesn’t feel honorable.
But war isn’t about looking pretty and badges of honor. War is about killing other people so you don’t die.

The reason why i respect sylvanas is because she just wants to get the job done, and doesn’t care which path she takes to get there.

When you are at war you can’t play nice, because that gets you killed.

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Easy to say when the Lich Queen started the war and blew up teladrassil because she got triggered by a dying night elf and then had the gall to blame the player character. We had just beat the legion then sylvanas thinks its a good time to start genociding people because surely the peace can’t last with the most peaceful king the alliance have. In real life as you for some reason have drawn parallels, genocide is a war crime and war crimes are punished

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Except burn down an entire tree full of elvish women and children.

Uh… Teldrassil was a continent above the clouds. It had branches larger than kingdoms and housed a majority of the Kaldorei population. It had its own ecosystem.

It wasn’t a city. Sylvanas burned down a continent with a good portion of the people left in it.

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so if you recall in legion

alliance and horde worked together

but horde was forced to retreat because they were getting ambushed too
alliance perspective thought the horde meant to leave them to die and therefore hates the horde for letting their king die. So much so that greymane f@#$ over sylvana’s plans there.
Your opinion is that after legion we can go back to (relatively) peaceful days whereas sylvanas think as soon as alliance are ready they will try and take revenge for king wrynn and the only way to win a war is to attack first.

As we cannot live 2 different timelines we will never know which one of you is right, but i am sure even after legion ends you cannot envision alliance and horde standing together picking flowers.

I drew a parallel in that the psychology of war doesn’t change whether you are fighting with swords or guns and no one is talking about honor when killing other people. However genocide is only defined as a war crime by the united nations and last time i checked there was no such body of authority in azeroth, therefore genocide is not considered a war crime.
For that matter, they also never had the Geneva convention so none of our current day rules of warfare applies to azeroth, and therefore using gas is not illegal by any means.

the irony of you saying war crimes should be punished if you live anywhere in the new world your country is literally built through the genocide of the natives here yet i don’t see any punishment when you are the winner of that war

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It is just a video game. As long as the story line supports the action, the rest of the plot is moot.

They key word is camp taurajo.

CAMP taurajo.

Alliance attacked a camp. It wasn’t a massacre and it was shown that way on both sides. And even after it happens alliance are given instructions to imprison/kill if they resist the human looters.

But like I said, CAMP taurajo.
Not the great city or village/town of taurajo.

Now, you can stop using it as an excuse to trivialize actual massacres.
I honestly don’t get this kind of psychology.

Gilneas: “but camp taurajo”
Southshore: “but camp taurajo”
Stonetalon druid school: “but camp taurajo”
Theramore, a city (1 expansion later): “but camp taurajo”
Teldrassil, an entire zone including a city that surrendered burnt down (4 expansions later): “but camp taurajo”

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Yeah but they can undead them…lol when alliance does it, it’s just sad.

man i cant tell if you’re wilfully being obtuse or if that’s how your brain works, either way its getting on my nerves. genocide is definitely a thing that happens in WoW, most recently with the nelves by sylvanas, earlier with the draenai by the orcs, high elves by the scourge, trolls by the night elves and everyone by the burning legion.

as for war crimes in our time, not to mention that of our ancestors, there’s nothing we ‘can’ do to punish those looooong dead. however history is not a monolith, it can be changed and interpretations can be made and people’s conceptions of events can be moulded, in good and bad ways. people are realising that colonials had massacred natives to bring about their own cities, that those great heroes of the past weren’t so great. not to mention some people nowadays don’t believe the holocaust happened, that the world is flat and the moon landing was faked :confused:

not to mention war crimes in WoW are most definitely a thing, everything garrosh did after bombing theramore, trying to wipe out the darkspears, destroying the vale of eternal blossoms and almost bringing back ysharrj were most definitely considered war crimes, had a book made on it called warcrimes but sadly he got away with it until thrall snaked that kill from the PC in WoD… still salty about that actually

Faction leader seeks to defend their faction.

Weird how that works.

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I wonder, when people like you try to justify things like this in a game, what kind of atrocities you’d justify in real life. I imagine your morality is just as skewed outside of the game.

A city full of civilians. Children. No combatants, just people. And you BURN them to death. Have you ever seen someone burn to death? Have you ever smelled the sickly smell of charred human flesh? Have you watched a little child die to something horrific? No, I imagine you haven’t. Like most people in North America, you’re coddled. So you can justify utterly irrational things because you’ve never experienced anything beyond the disconnect of a computer monitor.

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There IS no ration behind the psychology of these players. You’re left to wonder what kind of person would be able to rationalize the way they do.

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