I've Changed My Mind About Sylvanas

Community General Discussion
1

I’m well into the “I’m tired of Sylvanas” train. However, I was starting to write a post about how Sylvanas isn’t necessarily a Mary Sue, but I don’t think her character has been handled properly.

I based my definition of Mary Sue on OverlySarcasticProductions (fantastic reference, imo): “a character whose presence warps the rules of the world in which they live.”

I thought, “Okay, I don’t think she’s warping how the world works, she’s just doing things we didn’t know we could do.”

So, as I was writing the post, and listening to that video… The creator said a few things about Mary Sues.

  • “The Mary Sue is the center of attention at the expense of everything else.”
  • “The Sue warps the way the world works around them, glorifying the Sue over the expense of the plot.”
  • “That’s what the Mary Sue is: the only real thing in the universe. Everything has to lead back to the Mary Sue.”
  • “The Sueness is based on the fact that the story is sacrificed to make the Sue look good.”

When I heard those, I said, “Huh.” So… In the video I went to reference to support why I thought Sylvanas wasn’t a Mary Sue, I changed my mind.

However, I’ll also steal this quote: “A Mary Sue isn’t a character, they’re the artifact of an overly-centralized story.”

Basically… A Mary Sue isn’t a bad character, it’s a bad plot device. I think Sylvanas is a fantastic character. However, the plot is focusing too much on her and not giving her enough personally and meaningful consequences. She lost Lordaeron, a Val’kyr, and the Horde, but… We haven’t been shown (at least, not in-game) her personal reaction to those. We haven’t seen her have to change her plans because of them, not in any meaningful way. After all, after she lost the Horde, she basically said, “Ehh… Well, they already served their purpose.”

I think partly, I’m also not 100% sure that she’s a villain next expansion. I’m definitely more lenient with villains who are Mary Sues, because we know we’re going to get to beat them, eventually. Sylvanas is definitely an antagonist, but I’m not certain we’re going to get to defeat her, or, if she’ll reveal that she was “actually doing good this whole time.” Frankly, I just learned about the term “4D Chess”, and it perfectly captures my hesitance with our path foward.

TL;DR: Sylvanas is a cool character, but because the plot is overly-centralized around her, she’s currently being written as a Mary Sue.

2 Likes
2

Have no fear, a list is being made of the Dark Lady’s fair weather fans.

Yes, indeed. :skull:

1 Like
3

I think she’s interesting, but I wouldn’t call myself a “Dark Lady fan”, fair weather or otherwise. I’m an Elf fan, and Sylvanas is the basically the break over between “Elf” and “Not Elf” for me lol

4

At least this expansion looks to be telling us WHY she’s suddenly supercharged and able to seemingly do anything.
Not fun having great lore characters essentially toyed with in combat and not knowing why.

1 Like
5

There’s a part of me that hopes she survives Shadowlands and comes back to Azeroth and visits the charred remains of Teldrassil for the memories.

6

She can look upon the charred remains of Teldrassil from that pit she was thrown into in Edge of Night, as far as I’m concerned.

3 Likes
7

I will be VERY surprised if that doesn’t eventuate.

8

A Trekkie’s Tale
by: Paula Smith

“Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky,” thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. “Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old.” Captain Kirk came up to her.

“Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?” “Captain! I am not that kind of girl!” “You’re right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us.” Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. “What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?” “The Captain told me to.” “Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind.”

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

TL:DR This is the original Mary Sue. Written in 1973 as a parody of Star Trek.

2 Likes
9

Look at it this way.
We thought she’s feared death since Edge of Night.
What if it was truly the ever-growing Maw consuming all other afterlifes she feared. The knowledge that if she died she’d eventually be consumed by it.

She’s been powering it through Teldrassil and such but in turn also empowering herself to the point where she could defeat the lich king and tear open the way. I definitely don’t think it’s a coincidence she left Bolvar alive and that he’s helping us get to the shadowlands.

So it would seem she’s feigned allegiance to the Jailer, she’s intentionally getting us there; so the only real question is does she want us to kill the jailer to steal his power or as a means to stop the Maw so when she dies she can truly rest in peace.

10

I know terms can change and stuff, but the concept of a Mary Sue comes from the Mary Sue:

“Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky,” thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. “Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old.” Captain Kirk came up to her.

“Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?” “Captain! I am not that kind of girl!” “You’re right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us.” Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. “What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?” “The Captain told me to.” “Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind.”

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies, Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

It’s intended to describe a character who can do no wrong because they’re the author’s self-insert who is good at everything and has pretty eyes and is always surrounded by hot people who are totally into them. Whereas Sylvanas is supposed to be hated.

11

I don’t even mind if a villain is central to the story. My issue with Sylvanas is nothing she is doing makes sense. Especially retroactively now that they have retconned her being evil since end of Wrath. She is also supposed to be this master of plans but she constantly makes mistakes that cost her and could easily backfire for no reason.

Take the War of Thorns. She could have killed Malfurion right then and there but decided to trust Saurfang, someone who was just telling her how wrong it was that he threw an ax in his back, to do it. She could have made sure one of the people who could pose a threat to her was dead and further demoralize everyone.

Then there is the War Campaign where even if you are a loyalist she has you go around doing the stuff the non loyalist would do anyway. The loyalist is told to play along and save Baine. What? Then what was the point of the vision where she kills him? Why not send the loyalist to warn everyone and move Baine elsewhere/kill him? I know they couldn’t have both endings but they could have failed this. The command is dumb.

Then you have the actual end of the War where she beats up Saurfang and can win at any time. But she decides to throw a fit saying the Horde is nothing. She could have not said that and risked the siege. Not only would there be more bloodshed, the rebels would be demoralized after Sylvanas killed a big guy like that. More people for her to feed to the Maw. If things looked rough, she could just run off like she did. Leaving the Horde and Alliance in shambles and maybe struggle to beat N’zoth. He’d have likely killed more people anyway. If not he’d just continue to kill. Good for her right?

12

For now, at least.

1 Like
13

Right, I’m aware of the Star Trek fan fic. However, there have been subtropes of Mary Sue that have developed since then, including a trope where Mary Sue is “a jerk”.

A Sue isn’t necessarily a collection of specific character traits, but more… Basically, if a character - with any traits - is the anchor point of the story (and is not the Villain), then they’re acting as a Mary Sue.

Think about this… Of all the recent cinematics (especially the full-rendered ones), basically all of them have focused on Sylvanas in one way-shape-or-form. Is this because she’s the antagonist, or are we just too simple to understand her master plans?

If it’s the former, then no wrong. After all, the antagonist is supposed to drive action. However, if she continues to face no meaningful, personal consequences for her actions, then she is not acting as the antagonist. (Sure, some antagonists can get away with it, but that’s generally not the case of basically every WoW antagonist ever.)

1 Like
14

I hope my skill in 4d chess is up to par :confounded:

1 Like
15

Skill in 4D chess is seriously insufficient. At least 400D chess skill is needed.

2 Likes
16

If Sylvanas’s endgame is to cause maximum casualties (teldrassil etc) in order to fuel the maw and her powers to the point she can defeat the Lich King and tear the veil; some possible reasoning…

  • In that moment she left Saurfang to do it, not because she didn’t care about the war effort, but because burning the tree and all the souls that would empower her from that was more important than ensuring Malf’s death.

  • This plays into more of a theory of mine ralating to her leaving Bolvar alive. The idea that she wants us to follow her into the Shadowlands as a united force. Possibly to kill the jailer and stop the Maw from consuming all the afterlifes. So while killing or moving Baine may have seemed the better strategy at the time, in the long-run he helps unite the horde and alliance.

  • The same for the Saurfang fight she’s been trying to hold this position of power and keep the war going to fuel her powers so she can defeat the Lich King. His Horde pride gets to her when she’s hit because she’s been thinking about a much greater threat ever since End of Night, now that her lack of actual care for the horde is exposed she kills him, peaces out and begins her ultimate plan…

Much theorising, much rant, but there’s some sense to her actions if any of it proves true. Her main goal being to get powerful enough to tear the veil, then leaving Bolvar to help us either fix the afterlife so she doesn’t have to fear it, or take the jailer’s powers when we kill him.
(In the end we’ll all serve death meaning the natural order of death by stopping the Maw from consuming all)

17

This is a very interesting thought. Sylvanas, for the longest time, has had self-preservationist tendencies. I mean, that’s what we saw in “Edge of Night”. Maybe that’s her endgoal: do whatever she can to destroy the Maw, so she doesn’t have to go there.

I’m not sure how I’d feel if that were the case. I think I’d still feel like I was being played. Because, if the Maw were that big a deal, why not just ask us to help defeat it? Certainly, “everyone is being eternally damned” is a good enough motivation, if properly seeded.

18

Again she’s playing both sides.
If her powers come from the Jailer and he caught wind that she was working against him, he may strip them away. Obviously he wants the veil torn for his own reasons, maybe the maw will consume the living world, but I feel she’s leaving Bolvar and his knowledge so we will stop that.

It all makes a certain sense and may be their end justification for her actions. Even if some of it’s a bit of a stretch.

19

The real problem is not Sylvanas but the Player Character. Our Player Characters are the ultimate Mary Sue. We are the chosen one, hero, leader, best at everything, undefeatable, immortal gods. Therefore, the plot constantly has to warp around us and characters like Sylvanas and every NPC have to act like fools just to contrive a reason for us to go to another place and collect more loot.

2 Likes
20

Canonically, our player characters are just generic “adventurers”. Yeah, from a game perspective, like… Our characters have to be important, because… It’s an RPG. That’s the point of RPGs lol However, in the lore, our characters are random nobodies. Hell, even in-game, our characters don’t actually make any decisions. They just go and do what others told them to do.