Usha Eyegouge for Warchief.
You’re post is perfect OP. People are going to like and dislike what they’re going to like and dislike. Things are not mutually exclusive. Both Kul Tiras and Zandalar are where Blizz really shines. Two independent worlds, largely removed from the other faction, allowing both sides to be Heroes in their own right. Its when the Faction Conflict comes back up that things get messy.
You can despise Baine and Saurfang’s actions, but still hate the vilification of the Horde as a Faction. You can approve of Baine and Saurfang’s sentiments (if not necessarily the way they acted upon them), but not be advocating for the Horde to be subservient to the Alliance. And … I agree. Its hard to ignore (especially after Legion) that we are nothing more than the villains and side-kicks of the Alliance in this story (it is a VERY valid concern).
I like Saurfang and Baine as characters, I just don’t like how they’re being presented as ineffective. (Which is the issue with virtually every Horde character right now. Mayla, Rexxar, Valtrois, etc. all vocalize their distaste of Sylvanas but still don’t accomplish anything. The anti-Sylvanas crowd fails to act on their values in a productive fashion.) I forgive them, however, because I understand the meta purpose is to delay the Horde rebellion for future content. Their character concepts aren’t bad, just the writers’ execution.
Saurfang and Baine still have thematically appropriate characterizations for the Horde. They have monstrous aesthetics, but heroic ideals.
Sylvanas, however, is antithetical to the Horde. That was tolerable when she was just the leader of a fringe, covert, shadowy society, but not tolerable when she’s the primary authority in the faction. Now she’s ruining the identity of the whole faction in pursuit of her own values and agenda.
This is where I have a problem with your reasoning. They have done and said nothing that indicates that subservience to the Alliance or in any way being a sidekick. This and the idea that they are somehow part of the Alliance gets thrown around a lot. It simply is not true. It seems that many act as though if they are not actively aiding Sylvanas then they are on the Alliance. If they do not want war they are Alliance. Sadly, many seem to treat this as binary. Honestly, they can oppose Sylvanas, and even act against her, without being part of and/or subservient to the Alliance. And it is possible to have a shared goal with the Alliance, in this case the removal of Sylvanas, without being either a sidekick or part of the Alliance.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that you can dislike them and Sylvanas at the same time. The problem becomes when someone dislike them for opposing the thing they dislike Sylvanas for. People say, I don’t like Horde being villains, then with a Horde character refuses refuses to be a villain they hate them for not being villainous. That is kind of an issue.
It’s not that they are part of the alliance so much as it makes us feel that the horde needs the alliance to police it. Anduin was the one to give Saurfang the idea to revolt and let him out of prison, and Baine has a history of being extremely close to the alliance, to the point it sometimes feels like he prefers them to the horde.
It seems like they need the alliance to motivate the “Honorable” horde to act. I’m fine with the alliance joining in to help the horde in this plot, but not them being the brains behind the rebellion. The Horde should rebel because of what Sylvanas does to the horde without any egging on from the alliance. I don;t even care that much about the incredibly vague “Honor” the orcs have, she blew up my undercity, why do i need the alliance to tell me she is an insane dangerous threat?
I can kind of understand that. The Horde really needs to figure out how to limit its leaders power.
I don’t think this is the case. Saurfang obviously was struggling with the choice between honor and loyalty. Both of which matter a lot. I think he tried to avoid the choice. He could die fighting for the Horde and not have to continue to be a part of the honorless activity. And Anduin would stop Sylvanas. He is just an old soldier that is struggling with his conscience. Anduin did not give him the idea of a revolt. When Anduin said he could not stop Sylvanas, it told Saurfang he had to act. He could not hope that someone else would fix it and he would not have to choose loyalty verses honor. He had to choose honor. It was less Anduin giving him an idea, more the loss of a hope.
I have never gotten that impression. He has just been an advocate for peace. I think it just seems more than it is because of the rarity of that on the Horde side. Most of the Horde characters have been openly hostile to the Alliance. Baine sees no reason the Horde and Alliance can’t be friends. It seems more drastic by comparison to the hostility coming from others.
Baine’s actions were completely his own. The Alliance did not even know about it, much less motivate him to act.
I am not. That was all of Cata/MoP, and it was terrible. The Alliance should not be tacking along with the Horde. They should be driving at least some of the story.
And they are not. There is nothing the Alliance is doing to direct a rebellion. Nothing. Sure, Anduin released Saurfang. But nobody in the Alliance knows what he is going to do. It was more, ‘hey we both have the same interests, go do whatever you are going to do to achieve that.’ The Alliance has gone about their war efforts. Saurfang has gone his route, which we have not seen yet. But, the Alliance just let him free, we have every reason to believe there is no direction or even communication going on.
Too many people see Shaw having arranged a clear path for Saurfang to escape through Redridge as active collusion with the Alliance.
Oddly, Alliance player side, I don’t think we even know Saurfang is gone yet.
Which is weird because, you know, he’s the highest ranked Horde prisoner the Alliance has. Why the guards even left Anduin alone with him is beyond me. He could easily have killed him whether he would or not they should know that.
Of course it is!
The forums have taught me that. If you are not 100% with the Horde you are Alliance.
Sure one might claim they love the Horde and their lore, but if they have a blue background they obviously have no idea what they are talking about and their opinions should be dismissed.
And if you have a red background and criticize the Horde… get lost… faction changes are on sale now.
Not true, grandblade has a blue background and i probably trust him more to write horde then most horde players. I also dont think liking saurfang or baine makes you blue, i just don’t agree with you. My hope is that in the end blizzard can write a horde story for horde players, not putting us in these extremely vitriolic situations. I also say sylvanas is just as much written for the alliance as saurfang, neither really being written for the horde.
I’m not a “If you like saurfang or baine you have no say in the story” i’ll debate them whether they are good characters, but your opinion is just as valuable as mine. A wrong opinion doesn’t exist, just how popular or unpopular your opinion is, and who it resonates with. I’m just trying to explain why many horde players hate both sides of the story, if you like the saurfang stuff and feel it isnt bad, good for you, glad you enjoyed something i disliked, just don’t go telling me i’m a sociopath who is responsible for the terrible story.
I’m not accusing you specifically or disagreeing with you.
I was just pointing out that this attitude isn’t just related to Baine/Saurfang/Sylvanas.
Maybe I’m just annoyed at the number of times I’ve had my posts dismissed or even derided solely because of my blue background and love of certain characters. Or have had my opinions questioned or called hypocritical because of this either-or attitude some have.
BTW you know Grandblade is a male human paladin, right???
Yes, well, i don’t stereotype and he seems to be one of the most even tempered members of the forums.
If you like binary logic, the Alliance is waiting for you.
Very well said OP. People do know this though, it’s just much more convenient to discredit someone as a mindless Sylvanas sycophant because it’s easier than actually arguing against their perspective. Seen people on both sides use it all over these forums, and they’ll likely keep doing it because it’s pretty effective.
Hell, you can even support Sylvanas and dislike Saurfang/Baine, and do it not because you think any of them are wrong or right, but because the latter don’t have a workable goal in mind. Saurfang is an old man pining for a past that never was. My worry is that in the triumph of ‘His’ Horde, it will be a dead end for the Horde narrative.
At least Sylvanas hasn’t had her intentions revealed and there’s a chance of a twist outcome. I’ll take that over what I see as the certain doom of Saurfang’s revisionism.
I just want the actual horde to be dissolved, I don’t like the ‘‘muh honor horde’’ and how it drags the lore of Blood elves and forsaken, i just hope next expac we get our freedom( in lore) From everyone else and the forsaken and elves be left alone.
Sylvanas did nothing wrong! and go eat pig s@#$ your stinky orcs/taurens/trolls
The fact that he needed a pep talk from the Alliance High King is pretty telling when he spurned his own allied when they tried to rescue him. It doesn’t help that he has basically been getting SI:7’s help in escaping. God knows how Zak’han even knew he was in trouble.
He turned his back on his own people and only acted when an Alliance leader encouraged him to.
Name one time the Horde and Alliance have been at odds and Baine has taken the Horde’s side in the argument. I am not talking about fighting as he only does that because he is obligated to. I mean actually argues in favour of the Horde. He defended Taurajo being attacked, he was the first to talk about teaming up with the Alliance in 5.3 and he leaps at the chance to suggest negotiations when there is no way the Horde would get a good deal in the current state of the war. He is practically the go to Alliance advocate in the Horde. Hell, even when Magatha happened his first choice was to run to Jaina rather than reach out to Vol’jin.
This isn’t the first time he has outright commited treason. He secretly warned Jaina of the Horde attack on Theramore. That only slid because Garrosh had counted on that and used that to have the Alliance congregate forces in Theramore.
People talk about neutral Alliance characters being Horde apologists. Baine is an Alliance apologist.
Hate to break this to you but this is a MoP rehash. We have to suck it. There is a good chance you will have to as well.
This is something that cannot be said enough.
Grandblade seems to know more about the red team, than most people with red backgrounds around here. (cough Goshom cough, actually i take that back, EVERYONE knows more than Goshom) A HUMAN. PALADIN. That knows more about Horde, than Horde players, just let that sink in for awhile.
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of the direction Sylvanas is taking the Horde, but that doesn’t mean I’m particulalry a huge fan of how Saurfang is carrying out his operation either. I only want to go back to playing the unlikely hero fantasy that i was sold when i first rolled Horde, and Sylvanas is pushing the faction to become irredeemably evil. To a faction that needs to get it’s butt spanked and finger wagged by the Alliance, because our faction acts like a child that can’t behave for one second after an adult turns their back, and then gets mad at the adult for punishing us for misbehaving. It’s sad but it’s true, we apparently need the Alliance to keep us in line because we can’t be trusted anymore to behave on our own.
It angers me to no end when someone presumes that i like Alliance the Alliance just because i dislike Sylvanas, which is simply NOT the case. Obviously I’ll play both sides just to get the whole story, but the Horde will always be my preffered faction. So when i encounter some arrogant goon who proceedes to tell me to switch factions, it just feels like an insult to both my pride in my faction and my own intelligence. No one has the right to declare what faction someone else should or should not play, people have the right to play whatever faction they want. People are going to have different opinions, and that’s ok, like, i disagree ALOT with the Sylvanas crowd and I’m pretty sure many people in this thread know this very well. But I’m not going to tell them how they should think because that’s not for me to decide, the only thing i can do is express my own opinions and explaining why my opinion is what it is. Just as they can only express their opinion and explain it, and opinions are MEANT to be disagreed on, that’s why they’re opinions and not facts.
Bottom line is, just because people on the same faction don’t agree on something, doesn’t mean they don’t belong on the faction, they just have a different viewpoint and see things differently. Which is fine, because that’s just how people are, not everyone is going to see things the same way as others.
Not his first choice.
For various reasons, he just didn’t think it was safe or practical to reach out to the other Horde races.
Garrosh had no idea Baine would warn Jaina. He used other means to ensure they’d expect an attack on Theramore. He actually expected Baine ( and Vol’jin) to be awed by his brilliant plan once it was revealed.
No one in the Horde other than Perith Stormhoof knew Baine warned Jaina.
Not until War Crimes.
Now everyone knows.
No one cares.
I saw that.
You were one of the people I was thinking of when I made that post.