I’m a great advocate for the MoP MW Monk Playstyle.
I loved the smart heals from my fists.
All it needed was the legion artefact ability to heal everybody with the heal bubbles laying around.
I feel Blizz could easily bring back the fistweaver as a set of talent choices. Provided that Serpent statue will become baseline.
T1 instead of let’s say Chi Wave, DMG to Heal
T4/5 Copy heals with Serpent Statue.
And you had a nice kinda functioning fistweaver build choice.
A lot of the logs I’ve been going through, along with my own testing shows BDB and Faeline Stomp to be relatively close to one another over an average 7min fight. Kyrian noticeably below those two, and Venthyr noticeably above.
If it just did healing it’d be perfectly fine, it’s the fact that it’s a massive amount of healing and damage that they’re likely going to tune down. It’s likely the healing will be nerfed slightly, with a larger nerf to its damage.
Right, but again, FO is a 3 minute cd, the night fae ability 30 seconds With a chance at a reset and BDB is 1 minute but that lowers with the conduit. FO for a 3 min ability is perfectly fine. Toning it down to bring it in line with abilities that are such smaller cds makes no sense.
Bringing it down to be numerically equivalent over a 7min period seems perfectly fair to me.
Should one button press of FO be equivalent to 1 button press of either of the other? Nope, FO should decidedly do more with each press due to the CD
Should it equal out to about the same amount of healing over the average duration of a boss fight? Yes, they’re looking for a balance between potency and frequency.
I’d be ecstatic if they buffed all the others to equal out to about the same as FO over that duration, but realistically Blizzard is far more likely to just nerf FO.
Why should it even out? If everything was equaled then there would be no point in taking a 3 minute cd when you can take a 30 second cd and do the same healing. With BDB you get a more sustained heal style that helps in more situations over the course of a fight then FO that is just a lot more burst. There’s a lot of play you can do with BDB also, like throwing it down then casting revival to get a super juicy revival on people and making revival a strong cd. There’s more play around BDB then there is FO. FO biggest strength is that it also does dmg. Looking at through a purely healing perspective it’s healing is strong but it also over heals a lot.
The more I obsess over covenants, the more I’m leaning toward BDB. I wonder if this would give a higher value to mastery if taken though… If you combine that with Yu’lon and how often we’ll be using EM, it seems like Gust of Mist is going to get some major play this expansion. I’m sure Crit and Vers are still going to be top, but I’m curious if taking BDB will change that priority.
Possible argument for M+ maybe? The lack of multi target options on Gusts really is it’s big sticking point in Raids.
EDIT: Though probably not since BDB adds a flat amount to mastery so mastery rating doesn’t really become more favourable for most cases.
Because this is what they’ve stated they want to do?
They’ve flatly said that they don’t want one to out-preform the others, and that’s what they’re working towards in terms of balance. I’m not saying that they need to be down to the decimal point balanced, but they should be in a state where your choice of covenant is largely influenced by cosmetics or playstyle of ability. They’ve indicated this is the direction they’re going and I agree with it. Fallen Order and Weapons of Order currently have too large of a gap from the others.
Fallen Order is a press it and forget it once every 3 mins CD. It’s strong, but that’s not the type of interaction I enjoy and I don’t imagine I’m the only one.
Bondust Brew is a playstyle of use it to interact with your spells and then work a bit to get it off CD faster. It’s ok, but again not a playstyle I like.
Faeline Stomp is a use it and you can proc it again by doing what you’d be doing normally playstyle. This one I like.
Weapons of Order is a click the buff, with a useful potion effect. This playstyle I like least of all.
You don’t need to agree, but realistically speaking with where Devs have said they want covenants to be at for launch, FO is likely to be nerfed.
Edit: Again, I’d love for them to bring things up to where Fallen Order is currently, but monks don’t get nice things.
I think they talking about “damage over time” should be equal.
Example:
Button choice A) does 100ish damage and healing when pressed on a 60 second cooldown.
Button choice B) only does 50ish damage and healing when pressed but it’s on 30 second cooldown.
Over a 2 minute fight:
Button A) would be pressed only twice for 200 damage and healing.
Button B) would be pressed 4 times for 200 damage and healing.
The Covenant abilities should follow this principle pretty close for them to be balanced.
It’s when we get to effects that can’t be gaged directly on a numeral metric that things get fuzzy.
Except you also have to balance for the fact that you are using extra Global’s I. Your example for no added benefit. But your point is still easily understood.
But there’s no choice here. Two globals vs four globals for the same amount of healing. There has to be an incentive for someone to choose the four globals – something that warrants having to use twice as many buttons in the same time frame.
That’s why I listed the damage with -ish.
As in, close to.
One extra global per minute or whatever can’t be worth a LOT more although it should be considered. It just shouldn’t be so massive that it removes the balance in the first place.
Ish.
I see the point you’re trying to make, but it sounds like you’re looking at this from a purely numerical perspective. Some abilities do more than just provide numbers. How would you balance effects? Take BDB for example. How would you balance BDB when compared to Fallen Order? Would you balance by potential healing/damage?
I’m just a player, and make a crappy armchair developer but some abilities, by nature, will be flat out better in some situations.
It’s just our hope that the they end being somewhat close numericlly, to the overly simple example that I described.
So, a few people are coming back to the investment in globals spent.
If you’re PVPing that’s a valid argument.
In PVE unless you’re chasing a World First or Hall of Fame slot, globals don’t carry nearly enough weight to be considered that heavily.
One ability is indeed typically going to be better than the others, they just need to narrow the divide by which it is. A lot of people have already done the math on the average gain per cast on most of these abilities. Bonedust Brew averages to be about 12% increase in healing done for example.
Back to the Crux of the topic(this thread had gotten a bit off-topic, which is totally fine) but I feel even if they made Chi-Ji a one minute coolodown, and closer to including Way of the Crane more, perhaps a melee attack buff, myself and a lot of folks that like that style could feel represented.
We have to remember, at least for PvP players, as we as many more, we are losing Way of the Crane completely, while Chi-Ji is just being reworked. Basically.
At first, it looked like they were gonna lower the cooldown but then went back on that so essentially MWs are outright losing WotC and only getting a reworked Chi-Ji that doesnt do anything to represent that lost playstyle.
A playstyle which was already seemingly being phased out.
Is it wrong to just wanna play MW close to the same way as when they were original released?
Even if it’s thru talent options to offer the variety.
Also, it doesn’t seem correct to streamline some healers combat healing package(Holy Pal, Disc), while effectively removing it from others.
It reminds me of the unborn that consumes the embyo if it’s twin to become strong while leaving the original dead.
MW, is certainly not dead but the original playstyle that some folks gravitated towards basically is.
That my main issue.
Is it best to just accept it and move on?
No. Not really, not when it could so easily be included thru talents and with the groundwork already laid out be precious incarnations of the spec.
Personally, I enjoy the mistweaving “Healing turret” playstyle… the ST burst healing is super fun to me; however, I really do feel for all the MWs that want to fistweave. I sincerely hope that we can all be happy with what we’re getting.
This is what our talents should be for: customization. We should be able to go in either direction, and not be pigeon-holed into one or the other playstyle. Having fistweaving be reliant on legendaries, and whatnot, doesn’t feel good I imagine. It’d be better if we had talents for fistweaving and mistweaving, so we could choose how we want to play… and not be forced to wait for legendaries, or other power systems, to allow for it.
Honestly, a talent that allows for a Chi-ji or WotC-like effect, all the time, would be a step in the right direction; after all, these CDs kind of restrict fistweaving to short windows every 2-3 mins. Not cool. I mean, it’s hardly fistweaving if you’re fistweaving on CD. Sure, the one legendary sort of fixes that, but you really shouldn’t need a legendary to fistweave. In a way, it’s a wasted legendary.
Anyways… that’s all I’ve got say about that. Wishing you all the best, and hoping that Blizzard listens so we can all enjoy our MWs in SL!
Thanks for your time,
Chän
In general, having Chi-Ji being permanent would be incredibly against the class theme. We aren’t a pet based spec, Fallen Order and the current Celestial invocations are already getting some ire in that regard.
Chi-Ji on a 1min CD is a bit too low now that Enveloping Breath is actually working for the talent. 2mins is a more reasonable timeframe. 3 mins is still too long.
I honestly think an eminence playstyle was the closest to healthy to keep most players happy with however they want to manage their monk. I’m crossing my fingers that todays announcement that legendaries are tuned to low that they look at ATOM specifically.
I wasn’t really referring to the pet, but the damage-to-heal effects which seem to be missing, for the most part, outside of CDs, or the legendary.
I would never even bother to try fistweaving unless the damage-to-heal effects were consistent. I wouldn’t want to be fistweaving on CD, basically. Doesn’t seem fun to me… but maybe others disagree and are OK with fistweaving every 2-3 mins., and/or waiting for the legendary to do what MWs should already be able to do?
Apologies… I don’t know what the “Eminence playstyle” is, or was. I’m pretty new to MW. All I know is what it is now, and not what it once was.
Thanks for your time,
Chän
Eminence saw a few different forms, most following a key theme. All damage you do is echo’d as a % in healing to nearby allies. They said they got away from this since it discouraged active healing. You’d focus on keeping Renewing Mists out (previously a single cast would clone on a nearby ally up to two times, meaning both charges would potentially cover 6 people).
Leading into resource generation; Tiger Palm to quickly build Chi (yes we had it, and could bank up to 4 chi). Eminence was a weak form of healing to sustain a group while we resource build. We’d then spend Chi on our powerful abilities (vivify was essentially a replacement for uplift which was instant and cost 2 chi, enveloping mist cost 3 chi).
Ignoring the Chi explanation, which I honestly think was a healthier and more balanced playstyle, Eminence wasn’t limited to specific abilities. It is what Way of the Crane was based on. All of your damaging abilities would proc healing on allies. I think in order to keep fistweaving alive, bringing Eminence back in some form or another would be amazing.
Edit: after blizzard said they disliked the not hands on healing leading into ramp up to mass healing, they birthed the current iteration of Discipline relatively shortly afterwards, earning my ire.