Issues with elemental gameplay

Let’s talk about a few things. Earthquake. This either needs to be a much larger size diameter, or needs to apply all of its damage immediately or like a dot so the damage sticks. This constant trying to guess what the tank is going to do next and only being right sometimes is honestly so unfun. It’s also unfun for tanks, they have to constantly try to keep the mobs in the EQ while dodging new ground effects or kiting mobs to drop various deadly stacking effects which is an added challenge that only gets the ele their full damage value where other classes are doing equal and more damage without any such hindrance. I can see it being a thing if it was like super op and did alot of damage but then you’d have to have ground effects everywhere or it’d be op. It would help in raid tremendously as well if the damage was applied instantly because right now as it stands you have to put down EQ before the mobs even show up to do mediocre damage and most of the time it’s not even worth it and you are better of just spending the maelstrom on a single target spender and chain lightening which is capped at 5.

Next issue is 2 and 3 target. you don’t even use EQ until you hit 4 targets. so our 2 and 3 target feel incredibly anemic. 2t you literally do your single target rotation and can spread 1 extra lightning rod for a whopping 18% total more damage when you add a whole 2nd target. Simple fix would be to let chain lightning be a viable button to press here. one idea i saw was let chain lightning bounce back and forth between 2 targets for a limited amount of extra maelstrom, tuning tbd. either it does more damage by itself to fill the void, or it help to generate more maelstrom so we can get more spenders which in 2 and 3 target are extremely lacking. spenders…. another issues, we use single target spender until we get to 4 targets…. EOGS sort of solved this in TWW because you could both get your stat bonuses from EB and then get a near double value EQ thus getting to get the stat bonus and do aoe damage. as it stands now, the stat bonus is so strong we HAVE to use EB up to 3 targets because it’s just more damage because of stats. so by getting rid of EOGS you seriously hampered our ability to do 2 and 3 target damage which were already seriously not great. we need some kind of filler effect to help do more damage somehow, there’s no reason for ele to be so weak for this target count that I can understand, we aren’t the strongest in aoe and classes that are stronger than us in aoe are also SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than us in 2 and 3 target. make it make sense.

this is what our output looks like in m+ build for instance which is marginally different tbh than raid spec.

1t - 100% damage

2t - 118% damage - this is seriously unbelievably bad for how many encounters are 2t, this needs to be at least 140% to be near the bottom of the pack, we’re well below the bottom as it stands in this target count.

3t - 180% damage - we are, compared to every class I have seen, VERY weak in 3t to give an idea of how bad 2t is. the only reason this looks somewhat ok is because of how bad 2t is it seems like a large uplift, but our 2t should be more like 160% to feel on par with many classes. this is where the liability is in bringing ele you are doing tank damage.

4t - 272% damage - we feel ok in 4t this is where we can at least start to EQ

5t - 383% damage - we finally are generating full maelstrom and feel on par with most classes which is odd because we’re supposed to be the kings of 5t

6t - 420% damage - EQ is our only ability that scales beyond 5t so the jump up per target suddenly stops and we get small increase per target

7t - 450% damage and on and on, it’s about 25% slowly diminishing per target added beyond this point.

The right side of the tree doesn’t seem cooked at all, the crit modifier on voltaic blaze is bugged and isn’t doing full damage which is TINY for a 15s button? the only way this button would feel good is all of the points associated with it were baked into that one and then it would be halfway decent. right now the only reason we take voltaic blaze is for the 10% bonus damage from inferno arc it gives on only 6 targets, why not just apply flameshock to everything, why are we doing this 6 target count thing, it does almost no damage anyways and there’s no way to guarantee that chain lightning even hits those 6 targets when there’s a large pull of like 15+ mobs, that value is just lost. there’s so many de-synergized things about elemental that the class feels so clunky and unfun that i imagine many people are turned off to ele which was one of the most exciting classes to play in TWW.

that being said, I love ele and am playing it right now and will continue to do so. when I say unfun, it’s just like vague, unnecessary half mechanics that don’t seem to be fully developed into their intended roll with strengths and weaknesses.

i don’t have all the answers and am interested to hear what yall think could be solutions and things you are missing or wish were part of the class either tuning or vibe or other.

goodluck

11 Likes

The plight of ele has been the 2-3 (particularly spread) target scenario for ages. ST feels fine. 4+ together feels fine. 2-3 target feels awkward, especially if spread.

Outside of one DF season (s1) where we ran meatball spec with LMT/PWave, it’s kind of always been the specs weakness.

On one hand, it’s not a common issue with modern end-game designs thankfully, but it does rear it’s ugly head for 1ish raid boss and a couple m+ bosses every tier.

I don’t think it would feel as bad if a number of other ranged specs had similar weaknesses though (Frost Mage is in a similar boat in my experience). Basically any non-DoT spec has this weakness in 2-3 spread scenarios.

One, the Voltanic Blaze capstones not being meta this season hurts in this regard.

Two, I’ve never fully understood the Flame Shock CD, and even moreso now. The VB cd (A 15 second CD on a Dot) is bizarre. We can’t even keep this DoT on 3 spread targets given the duration/CD.

Not that Blizz cares about my opinion but:

  1. Remove Flame Shock as a cast. Have Lava Blast place a Flame Shock on the target after being hit. Have Lava Surge procs from Lightning Bolt. Have Voltanic Blaze act like the old PWave where you hit it and your next Lava Blast hits all targets with an active Flame Shock (Increase the CD).
  2. Remove Flame Shock CD. Have Lava Surge proc from Lightning Bolt or decrease Lava Surge proc chance based on # of active Flame Shocks (Probably harder to implement).
  3. Make Lightning Rod more like Havoc. Active selection or random proc but copies all spells.

All I got for now.

TLDR: Ele design/kit stinks at 2-3 target, especially if spread, but thankfully it’s a less common occurrence in end-game so it kind of is what it is. Just be thankful if you play shadow, balance or affliction =)

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I completely agree with this, Imagine the first pull in AA, your voltaic blaze hits the small adds that die in 2 seconds and now you have to wait 13!! seconds before you can even consider getting the 10% damage increase from voltaic blaze up again.

The flame shock cap really hurts us in AOE in this regard too.

I also do not like how we are SO dependent on Ascendance burst every 2 min when a class like devour DH can literally do our ascendance damage on every pull with void meta. Like, our burst is good, but if the pull goes longer than 30 seconds we quickly start to fizzle out.

On top of this we also have to constantly target swap our tempest to min-max lightning rods while other classes can just stay on 1 focus target the entire time. It’s a lot of work for not nearly as much reward as other classes provide it seems.

Our 2-3 target feels downright shameful along with any sort of spread cleave. We def need our Maelstrom gen from CL on 2-3 targets buffed just as a start.

Stormbringer feels too clunky to use especially during heavy movement with needing the hard cast Elemental Blast and tempest and make sure not to overcap on Malestrom/tempest charges/stormkeeper charges all at the same time.

I have done up to 17’s and 18’s this current season and I can honestly say the only time this spec feels really good and flows well is during pure Single Target and Ascendance burst windows. Everything else kind of falls flat and it’s a shame.

I would personally love if they nerfed Ascendance a little, made it a perma 2 min CD, replaced the first ascendance/pre-eminence node with DRE and maybe buffed our base spells a little to compensate.

Also, buff Farseer. Bring back Icefury. Bring back DRE. These would solve a ton of these issues all in one.

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For me the specs biggest issues are Earthquake being an annoying, extremely outdated spell and our lack of movement globals. God knows why whiners cried to remove Icefury, it literally made the spec so much worse to play in anything that requires movement - which is all the content in the game. So dumb.

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there are many moments on multiple boss fights where the target count quickly becomes 2 or 3 at best. it happens on king, it happens with the small adds on vorasius being 2-3, obviously dragons there’s 2 targets rarely a 3rd, small adds go poof, paladins is 3 targets but at least half of the time it’s 2 target because one is doing their cast off in narnia. it’s basically half of the raid fights are our weakest profile not to mention often cl is like 1or 2 yards short of being able to jump so you’re better off just st in many cleave situations. as for m+ it’s less of an issue but there are a handful of fights where bringing ele seriously slows down your timer. gemellus from MT is for much of the fight 2t, one moment of 4 or 5t then back to 2/3ish for the rest of the fight. muro’jin and nekrass first boss from MC. derelict duo in WS. zuraal the ascended in seat with the oozes 2 target if the dk grips one ooze to the other. saprish also in seat, 3t the entire fight. rukhran in SR with a singular add for 2t. it’s everywhere, our 2t and 3t isn’t just bad it’s problematic like you’ll be 30-40% less damage than otherclasses on those fights, it’s really punishing for really no equal upside somewhere in our kit.

The crazy thing is, Farseer feels infinitely better on these fights with the cleaving of lava bursts (I’ve tried) but it still doesn’t feel numerically up to par unfortunately.

That’s why I would love farseer/fire buffs/DRE to handle those situations better.

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yeah farseer felt fantastic to raid with all of the mobility as well. As it stands Shaman dps as a whole needs a complete rework, there is no other class that has two specs that share most of the same spells. enhance and elemental are basically shuffled version of each other. elemental is more like just lightening sorcerer, there’s no frost build at all, in fact our only frost ability is in our class tree and requires us to spend a point to get it, there’s no fire build (that is competitive), there’s only lightening. lava burst doesn’t burst at all it is a st spell, shouldn’t lava BURST do some degree of cleave? there’s just so much thematically that is undercooked about one of the coolest thematic classes in all of wow. elementalists are thematically goated. it’s such a complex theme that it really deserves it’s own class entirely with different specs for each element like how mage is arcane/fire/frost, elemental is like lightening, volcanic, and wind. it’s just not anywhere near it’s potential and a company as large as blizzard is not lacking in the dev department.

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Honestly the answer to Ele right now… other than buffing Farseer, and bringing back meatball spec, is to just make earthquake have the same radius as starfall, and be centered around the shaman, not the mob.

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this is a decent idea, eq damage is such a slow roll anyways it makes no sense it’s both slow roll and also such a small size, it’s like double punished.

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Should change Earthquake into a Lava Eruption that spreads a 4 second, stacking dot. It makes the most sense to do it this way. Plus the earthquake visual is way outdated. Even more so the spell itself.

As mentioned countless times; Earthquake simply doesn’t work as it is now.

:volcano:

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I cannot believe there’s no patch notes to address the gaping holes with ele rn. seriously discouraging.

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I mean, frost mage blizzard has the same problem and can’t cast it as often as we can. This design challenge is intentional and part of the game play. I made peace with it in Shadowlands and you will have to as well.

An idea I kind of wonder about is if making chain lightning chain back to a target if no new targets are available would help cleave fights.

That is, if you have 5 targets then chain lightning hits all 5 but if you have 3 targets, it would bounce from 1 to 2 to 3 to 1 to 2.

IDK. I’m sure someone else can find the big flaw in that somewhere.

yeah I get the design part but the question here is what is the trade off? what is the reason for it being so difficult, many other classes have no such hindrance for no real trade off I can figure. im fine with things having strengths and weaknesses but this is just a weakness. it’s not any more powerful than aoe spells that have absolutely no hindrance. at some point the strength fell away and it’s just a weakness now. I can come to peace with anything. I just want to have a discussion about this. same issue with blizzard, it had a very pronounced strength which was it slowed everything greatly, but over time that ability has become less pronounced and now it feels outdated. rain of fire from destro warlock does kind of piss damage so it’s not too large of a loss, but EQ is our TOP damage by a mile in large aoe pulls so it is SUPER punishing. if it was like 5% of our overall it wouldn’t be a big deal but some pulls it’s well over 30-40% so a tank kiting out of your EQ you can easily feel gutted. it’s a spender too so it feels so bad wasting resource.

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The difference is Blizzard is used for procs and not a large percent of Frost Mages Damage. If you actually played your Shaman competitively rather than sitting at level 80 you’d know that. So I’d actually level your Shaman and use it before you make any suggestions or comments about gameplay perspective.

I think this is a good solution, I don’t think it should give full maelstrom that would be seriously strong and we don’t need to make it strong just have some gain, either it bounces and gives full maelstrom and damage is minimal, or full damage and maelstrom is minimal. There’s so many options here to help ele out of the gutter in 2 and 3 target and it’s not like we should be good at everything but we are one of the only, if not the only class, that has NO talents they can take to give them so kind of 2 target uplift. it would be nice at least to have a way to not be half of a dps on 2t fights. i guess farseer is decent at 2t at least relative to stormbringer but it’s just so undertuned it also feel bad.

Dude, I was on an 18 AA and with the way tanks kite on that pull it feels impossible to come close to Unholy DK’s and Demo Locks so your overall suffers pretty heavily from that 1 pull.

I even pre earth bind to slow the mobs and it still feels awful lol.

Earthquake could absolutely get some of its slow back/ a bigger radius/ do its full damage in less than 6 seconds per quake to feel at least decent.

1 Like

yeah, I’m not sure even if they kept perfectly still and you got 100% value out of your eq you’d be able to compete with severfal classes, uhdk, devourer, demolock, feral, arms, bm hunter, the list goes on. so again the question arises, why do we have such a punishing spell to do mediocre aoe relative to less punished and higher aoe spells.

i’d be a fan if they made cl do some kind of radiative damage to give us some aoe power away from eq, or rework eq entirely.

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ele is probably the most outdated spec in the game, has no real strengths (over other classes) and only weaknesses and downsides to play

and you know this shi ain’t changing for the next 6 years

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I sadly actually agree with this…They gave us this awesome rework in TWW, then in Midnight literally took all of those good changes away and put us back into the Stone Ages.

DRE with pre-eminence felt awesome because it fixed our problem of only doing damage inside our CDS.

Icefury felt great as a empowered movement global AND it was AOE. It especially felt great with Stormbringer since we are SO hard cast locked outside of Spiritwalker’s Grace.

Knockup thunderstorm was amazing for M+ and didnt displace mobs everywhere if needed to interrupt in a pinch.

Stone Bulwark totem was thematic and felt great as another mini-defensive aside from our 1 charge of Astral Shift.

Earth Elemental losing it’s taunt in order to get the 15% hp buff is also a questionable change, because the taunt was actually useful in certain situations.

We lost so much utility and QOL and gained literally nothing in return for it as compensation.

Farseer felt great because it fixed our split cleave issue somewhat.

Like what was the point of the midnight changes? It certainly didn’t make the spec feel any better lol

We really should get some of this stuff back to feel adequate.

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