See, this honestly should have happened back during Wolfheart and Cataclysm instead of, “Oh, Maiev’s a serial killer and going around killing Highborne.”
Um, there’s literally an entire kingdom of Highborne over in the Eastern Kingdoms? Would’ve been the perfect way to set up Alliance aggression.
Instead we got Garrosh and Theramore.
Oh, I definitely agree there needs to be a plausible reason.
I just think Yrel and the Lightbound is a plausible reason.
And this basically flies in the face of Turalyon’s portrayal is my problem. He’s said himself that you don’t trust the Light blindly, that you follow your heart and your head as well, and his established position on that is that peace with the Horde is the right course. For him to turn around now to become an antagonist would feel forced and badly written.
To be fair, the same could be said of Sylvanas Windrunner burning Teldrassil Garrosh-style (instead of something far more direct and surgical, which has always been her go-to strategy), but Blizzard went and did it anyway.
Right, because he’s an Alliance character? And I actually disagree. What feels forced is that he’s totally acclimatized to this new world as fast as he is. That’s forced.
Him catching up on like 20 years of World History in a year and knowing right away that these Light Worshipping Draenei are immediately evil for no reason is how they work. The Alliance is a faction comprised of perfect, infallible people … and that includes the guy who’s been gone for 1000 years. Which is why he can’t have his faith or preconceptions (like him immediately trying to kill Faol the moment he saw him) used against him, or make mistakes. That’s what Horde characters and races are for.
To be honest, with Tyrande and Shandris off in the Shadowlands and Malfurion likely still in recovery from his brush with Axe-in-the-back, I wouldn’t be surprised if Maeiv decided to carry out Tyrande’s last intent and avenge the Kaldorei. So, now doesn’t feel like the worst time. All it would take is the slightest provocation and I could see her jumping on it.
I agree; Turalyon being turned into a Lightbound puppet with no will of his own is a plausible reason.
Yup. No disagreements here. That was dumb.
No, because he’s not a warhawk looking for an excuse, he’s one of the peaceniks trying to maintain the peace. He’s just a peacenik that’s not going to turn the cheek when punched, he’s going to punch back twice as hard.
I’ve said it before, if Turalyon goes raid boss, then fine. His faith in the Light left him vulnerable to being turned into a puppet? Makes sense. The idea of him suddenly going, “You know what? Forget peace, the Horde needs to be saved from itself,” feels forced and badly written.
And the last thing I want is another Jaina Proudmoore flipping between peacenik and warmonger at the toss of a coin. I’d rather lose Turalyon as a mind-controlled Light puppet than see that happen.
When is it ever implied that he’s a peacenik? When is it ever implied that he has any reason not to see the Horde (who he’s insulted even has paladins) as anything other than monsters? Him being understanding about not imposing the Light over other’s wills also does not deal with his feelings of using it on beings who are prone to acting in evil ways through their Free Will. Have him BE THE HERO saving Azeroth from a Destructive Force. The Current Horde. Which is riddled with Destructive Evil Races from his experiences. Or at least that should be his impression from his interactions with us. All we need to do is prove it again.
I am not saying he’s a raid boss. I am saying that you give him a MOTIVE to act on his prior preconceptions (which are totally justified btw), and the power to act on that motive. Thus, making a MISTAKE, and not realizing it until too late. But you’re argument is “NO, He can’t make such a mistake”. Even backed by a Dread Lord. Even backed by the House of Nobles. Even seeing his Home in ruins, a feted Undead wasteland. Even seeing so many of his own people turned into Undead abominations. Even him having limited understanding of the history of the Current Azeroth he returned to. He has to master all that history and get over his preconceptions instantly … because he’s an Alliance character. That just makes sense.
https://www.wowhead.com/news=311486/new-excerpt-from-shadows-rising-shadowlands-prequel-novel
Which brings up another possibility, that of Genn Greymane being the (decidedly non-peacenik) reason for Alliance aggression.
Because unlike Turalyon, Greymane doesn’t need a Naaru to mind-control him into dealing out the first strike; he’s already done it before, back in Legion.
Of course, that was literally brushed away like it was nothing, because “anything goes for the morally-pure Alliance.”
So … him agreeing that “rash action” is harmful is him being a peacenik? Or him “Saving Azeroth” from a destructive force, if something happens to convince him that’s what we are is not in character?
Whatever … I give up. Having even the most obvious person to be drawn into such a story is worthless. The Alliance aren’t allowed to be misled. To make mistakes. To have their faith and history used against them. They aren’t allowed to ever do anything even slightly grey. They aren’t allowed flaws. And if that means having a guy who’s known only Warfare for 1000 years suddenly become perfectly acclimatized with the world he’s been gone with for that time … and become a peacenik. So be it. The Horde races are the evil, flawed, monsters who are so primitive we constantly fall for manipulations. Only WE are weak enough to have our Faiths and Cultures constantly used against us.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a direction that was explored. Shaw seems to feel that Genn should’ve been left in charge instead of Turalyon.
Him saying that the armistice should be respected, that the Horde should be trusted to share information when the time is right, is evidence of his drive for peace, and the fact he doesn’t see the Horde as, “monsters,” as you put it.
And WHERE is he getting this from?
What does Turalyon know about the current Horde or the current World to make such a statement? This is my problem with him. He has no foundation to take such a stance from his experience with the Horde faction. We were barely even involved in Argus, outside of a few Blood Elves and Nightborne. Then the WoT happened. It is so unbelievably forced that he of all people is taking such a stance. As it REQUIRES him to become fully acclimatized with the history of Azeroth since he has been gone AND wind down from 1000 years of perpetual conflict to take it. Or … he’s just “wise because he’s expected to be wise”.
Its BS. Its as I said. It does not make sense for Turalyon to take such a stance, yet apparently that’s the one Blizz has ensured he take … because he’s an Alliance character. Thus, he’s expected to just take it.
I don’t know.
Could it be that having lived over 1,000 years fighting the Burning Legion he’s come across various races on different worlds, trying to save them? Has he encountered races that have gone through what the Orcs went through? Perhaps he gained this wisdom by listening to people? Alonsus Faol certainly opened his eyes up to the fact that the Forsaken were not the same sort of undead he knew from the Second War.
Let’s not forget Turalyon had always been struggling to understand the Orcs during the Second War, and while he came to a conclusion, the fact remains even then he was trying to understand them.
Having learned of all that happened to Azeroth since his return, what conclusions should he have come to? Lest we forget he had at least three people who’d been on Azeroth for quite a while to explain things to him.
So is it really unreasonable that Turalyon, who considers Khadgar to be one of his closest friends and allies, should take on a view of the Horde that’s actually tolerant?
He’s been given no time to get to know the Horde. He has been given nothing beyond a few of us turning on our evil leader to suggest we are trustworthy. This is Turalyon taking a stance because it is ALWAYS Blizz’s first priority to make sure the Alliance has not an ounce of grey in them. And this is the reason Turalyon has taken such a stance, don’t kid yourself. And why such a mediocre “lets not be too hasty” stance needs to get extrapolated out to him being “pro-peace”.
Turalyon has absolutely ZERO reason to trust the current Horde, or its races. Yet, he is expected to, because that is the expectation for an Alliance character.
To be fair, the Horde is made up of some former Alliance now. Forsaken and Blood Elves. But again, I would argue the likes of Khadgar would have had more of an effect on him.
Why should Khadgar be so pro-peace? How has he been given time to get to know the Horde? He spent most of his time in Outland, and then in WoD he just automatically trusted the Horde. Was that any worse?
You answer your own question:
What, you think Thrall’s Horde sat out during The Burning Crusade? There’s an entire story of how they fight to free the fel orcs from Magtheridon over in Hellfire Peninsula—both the Alliance and the Horde as a single, overwhelming army literally stormed the Dark Portal to push the Legion back.
Khadgar would have borne witness to or heard of pretty much every major deed the Alliance and Horde accomplished all throughout the Outland campaign, from shutting down Hellfire Citadel and Coilfang Reservoir to the Sin’dorei making war on their own prince at Tempest Keep.
So yes, Droite is spot-on when he points out that Turalyon hasn’t been given this amount of experience, and yes, the current writing team does seem to advocate an ongoing “Alliance = Moral Purity” trope.
Which is ridiculously moronic.
I think they settled into Hellfire Peninsula and later made contact with the Mag’har. What did Khadgar have to do with any of that?
Khadgar actually living in Outlands for years and getting accustomed to the non corrupted Orcs would be a fairly decent reason for him to take a neutral stance? Then fighting alongside both Factions for many years since then. Rather than Turaylon, who only ever really interacted with the Orcs, Trolls, and Undead in an antagonistic way up until Argus? And has been off with the Army of the Light for (from his perspective) 1000 years? All of it being in constant Warfare with a group that managed to do less damage to Azeroth than the current Horde has? Kadghar has reasons to take such a neutral stance. Turalyon’s just required to.
Apologies; I edited my post to include more information.
Khadgar was literally at the HQ for the Outland Campaign with A’dal, over in Shattrath. Which means:
So in other words, Word of Mouth is good enough reason for Khadgar to trust the Horde, but not for Turalyon?
At that point he’s had to been doing a lot of re-examination of his life’s choices going all the way back to Argus.