While I agree with most of what you’ve stated in your post, this I disagree with. I think we can argue the Alliance only has moral superiority because it was written that they should. However, Metzen himself states the Alliance was going to be a faction of, “Lawful Good Overdrive.” That was the intent, word of god.
I don’t think the Horde deserved to be Villain-Batted.
I don’t think the Alliance deserves to be Incompetent as the price of Lawful Good.
I’d prefer a story with moral equivalency, but we’re at the point where there isn’t a way to achieve it. Either the Alliance does the same things to the Horde that the Horde did to them, and the Horde responds in the same way the Alliance did, or forever will the Horde be known as the morally challenged faction.
I’d be very interested in knowing the context of this, considering Metzen himself gave us Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, which directly demonstrated how the Alliance was not necessarily morally-superior.
Unless, of course, he was talking about the more fanatical end of the spectrum with the words, “Lawful Good Overdrive,” which I could see being the case.
In which case, the game will eventually end in a Cuban Missile Crisis-style apocalypse, with both sides mana bombing Azeroth into oblivion.
Unless, again, we have something in-between the two poles, where the Alliance is shown to have the potential for moral corruption and villainy, but certainly not to the extent that we keep having these giant, apocalyptic acts that produce little more than shock value.
Faction conflict doesn’t have to be ugly or toxic. It can be—and, in WoW’s history, has been—fun, and even intriguing.
But only if it’s understood that neither side truly is morally-superior to the other, even if—and especially when—they claim to be so.
Let’s hope not, as that suggests the Horde has more than half destroyed the world already.
At this point, it doesn’t matter what Blizzard makes the Alliance do, or what the Alliance is shown as capable of, because unless it is the same stuff the Horde has done, players will always state, “Hey, the Horde did X. This is justified.” It will NOT be justified but players will argue that it is.
The Horde has crossed a moral event-horizon, and the only way for the two factions to be morally equal is for the Alliance to do the same, and that CANNOT be by different means, or else players will argue it’s not as bad as what the Horde did, or it’s justified because the Horde did X and X is way worse.
Re: earlier discussions around Turalyon being ‘tricked’ into being an antagonist, I think that is definitely not the way to go. No one likes their faction to be a pawn for some higher master (see the Horde and Sylvanas for the most obvious example).
Instead, keep it simple:
Turalyon is responsible for the protection of Alliance citizens, and he wants to see the old Alliance restored to its former glory. He is given the means to do so (Yrel and the Lightbound fleeing the collapsing AU timeline) and the support to do so (from Yrel, Genn, Maeiv, the dwarves, the Nobles, whoever else). So he decides he’s going on crusade, intent on recapturing all the Alliance’s lost territories and ensuring the Horde is in no position to destroy another Stormwind, Gilneas, Theramore or Teldrassil ever again.
This is a basic motivation that players can get behind. The Alliance should want to see its lost kingdoms restored and should not trust the Horde to govern itself, and in contrast, the Horde should not want their fates decided and world shaped by an uncompromising belligerent Alliance.
Perhaps the ultimate outcome can be some form of trickery, but the initial motivation should be something players can support.
Perhaps for now but how long before they get tired of waiting for Lorthemar and the other belves to give up their Horde connections, which is currently going pretty good for them? I guess it depends on how well they’re willing to take “No” for an answer.
Eh, maybe. I could picture the Alliance devolving into a more chaotic state without Anduin to guide the ship. He can get Genn to do what he wants but I’m not so certain that Turalyon can. Given Genn’s history with Terenas Menethil I can picture him not getting along with Lordaeron nobles and I wonder how Turalyon feels about Genn quitting the Alliance after the 2nd war.
Thank you. I found that a very interesting read, actually.
Nah, see…that’s just playing, “what-about,” though.
Which leads us back to how most Horde players, especially after BfA, genuinely want to feel good about playing Horde: an orc, a troll, a tauren, a goblin, etc.
I strongly disagree with this, if only because I think ultimatums of this nature are highly unrealistic for a fantasy setting with the narrative backstory that WoW has.
See, this is where you’re wrong—do you speak for all players of both factions? No; you’re making a generalization on what they’ll do based on your own bias.
And no, before you try to argue that I’m doing the same when I claim that “Horde players want to like playing Horde,” I’ll gladly reiterate that I have actually bothered to read hundreds of comments from Horde players confirming this, am currently subscribed to at least two different topics on this very subject, and am more than happy to point you in their direction:
MoP was a while ago, but Chris Metzen was the mind behind Warcraft, so it is as close to Word of God as we have as far as author intent goes. That’s not to say the folks currently holding the reigns can’t do something different. I’d argue they even have to an extent, but not nearly enough to really change anything. Certain elements in the Alliance have certainly done evil, but the narrative went out of it’s way to justify that evil.
Now, if the Horde could have that, I think it’d at least make enduring the horrible villain-batting a little better.
There is no reason a narrative cannot be crafted where Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins, etc… can do good. With Gazlowe we could see Goblins with a focus on long-term profits, meaning sustainable resource harvesting, minimal damage to lands, minimal pollution, business practices meant to bring customers back rather than make a quick buck, etc… Something like that I don’t see any reason not to add to the game.
I don’t want Horde players to feel bad about being Horde.
But if we’re talking about moral equality between the factions, unless the Alliance does what the Horde did, that kind of big picture idea isn’t achievable.
I’m all in favor of the Horde and Alliance ignoring one another from this point forward and focusing on in-house storylines. I’d be happy to see Orcs finding inspiration in their more honorable traditions rather than their more warlike ones. I’d like to see the Trolls continue the storyline they’ve had of progression from barbaric practices like cannibalism, growing and adapting rather than stagnating and being picked off.
But the Horde will never be morally equal to the Alliance with what has happened. The Horde can improve, the Horde can be better, it can even be good, but it cannot achieve moral equivalency with the Alliance after all its done.
I’m making a generalization off of what we see here on the story forums alone, let alone what happens in other mediums to discuss the game.
Again, this “solution” only works if you insist on the premise that “moral equity includes acts of genocide like Teldrassil.”
That’s a pretty horrifying argument to make.
I honestly feel like that would be the most constructive route to go, both of them focusing on self-improvement, with the possibility of a new faction conflict occurring in the (very, very distant future).
So, I’m genuinely curious as to how much of Battle for Azeroth you attribute to the Horde in general vs. merely Sylvanas and Nathanos alone.
Because honestly, I’m perfectly fine with making those two the sacrificial lambs for the next big peace—have Thrall off Sylvanas, send her head in a bag to Mt. Hyjal, everyone’s happy.
What could the Alliance do to the Horde that would be as bad as Genocide?
I’m honestly curious.
Me personally? For starters, I don’t hold Horde players, even the loyalists responsible because it was a dumb story to begin with.
If you’re asking from more of a RP perspective, if Solarion really were neutral, sitting in Dalaran, and observing everything unfolding, and you’d want to know how far the Horde is complicit in his mind, well, he’d argue that’s an impossible judgment to make. For starters, judging all the individuals encompassed under the umbrella of the Horde is a logical fallacy, and holding them accountable for actions they may not only have had nothing to do with, but also no say in, would be impossible to justify. On some level, the political entity known as the Horde is responsible. How much are they responsible for? Without more information its impossible to tell.
The most damning argument Solarion would find is the question, “After what happened with Garrosh, why would the Horde’s leaders wait so long to take action against Sylvanas?” We’re told in the expansion that most of the Horde supports her. THAT is not something that bodes well for them. But, why do they support her? Has she been deploying propaganda to make herself and the war seem better than it is, tricking and deluding those supporters? They’d be victims if that were the case. Or are we seeing more Garrosh-era bigots just looking for an out for their hatred?
It’s the kind of question Solarion would spend decades collecting information on, thinking over, gathering opinions about, etc… Even then I don’t think he’d have an answer for you or anyone. By then he’d hope no one would even care anymore, that things had simply improved to the point bringing it up would be pointless.
You claim to support “moral equity,” but then you also insist that “moral equity is impossible,” and inevitably end up supporting “an eye for an eye” mentality instead.
Well, firstly let’s be clear, moral equity =/= moral equality.
What is equitable for morality for the Horde? Do we hold them to a lower standard than the Alliance because of the Alliance’s cultures that have a standard of higher morality?
I’m familiar with the concept of equity in simpler terms. Two people go to the hospital, one has a scraped knee, the other has a bullet wound. Equal treatment would be slapping a bandage on both and sending them home, but that man with the bullet wound is likely to die of internal bleeding. Equitable treatment is giving the guy with the scrapped knee a bandage, and getting the guy with a bullet wound into surgery to get the bullet removed and stop any internal bleeding and then wrap the wound.
If we’re looking at moral equity, I can only assume you mean to suggest the Horde does something to improve it’s moral standing to come back from two bloody wars in which they followed bigoted/false leaders, as well as a genocide and the destruction of a number of major population centers.
Can that happen? I suppose that’s up to the writers but they seem happy enough dismissing all the Horde has done wrong with a, “But their leader is responsible for everything and no one else. No one. Else.”
I think there’s enough delusion and denial about the nature of Turalyon in here to say: there’s no more reason to waste time attempting to make people see reason—just banging heads against a wall—and everyone should just partake in the time-honored tradition of the forum:
Bookmark the page and come back to gloat in about two years if you end up being right.
Believe it or not, a lot of Horde players seem to think it can, if any of the comments in the two topics I linked are any indication.
See, once again you’re the one being dismissive of what Horde players have had to put up with for, quite honestly, the past 10 years or so.
Because the Horde playerbase doesn’t see it the way you’re describing; if anything, what they’ve been told by the writers amounts to:
“Well, it doesn’t matter how much effort you put into redeeming yourself, you’re just going to end up following a barbaric leader and causing mass destruction all over again anyway because you’re all monsters.”
They essentially see the Alliance of Lordaeron all over again, where the Alliance is completely blameless and morally-superior, and the Horde literally has to bend over backwards while begging for forgiveness (like with Thrall groveling and promising to off Sylvanas for Tyrande), even as they know it’s not going to make any difference, because the Alliance will “never forgive, never forget” anyway.
Given what the writing has been like since Mists of Pandaria whacked Garrosh with ye olde Villain Bat, I’m more inclined to listen to the Horde players’ grievances.
Quite the contrary. I agree with them 100% their story-telling has sucked.
What I don’t see many Horde players agreeing with is the reality that the Alliance story-telling has sucked as well. Too many, “Well, at least you’re the good guy,” comments for my taste. Its like a participation trophy.
The Horde’s story-telling has sucked, and I’d like to see it improve.
The Alliance’s story-telling has sucked, and I’d like to see it improve.
The best way for this to happen is to separate the two completely, but we know Blizzard will never do that. So how galling will it be for Alliance players to see another, ‘Draenor is Free,’ moment where the Horde are declared redeemed after pulling a genocide and two consecutive wars?
I want all players to be happy, not just Horde or Alliance players. Unfortunately a redemption the Horde is told they’ve gotten won’t be as satisfying as one they’re shown, and there are a lot of Alliance players who will feel the redemption was undeserved.
Did I mention how much I’d love to give both factions the middle finger and go join up with Dalaran or the Argents?
Honestly only way Blizzard can pull a light enemy based expansion they need to make the alliance take the fall because I doubt Yrel and her army would be enough and Blizzard seems fond to make faction wars to “weak enough Azeroth so both factions join together against the big bad”
Besides it’s not like Turalyon says things that later contradicts as we saw him torture a mother orc for information with his wife. If anything he either goes summisive when the Naaru knocks the door or the first casualty from his wife killing him.
One thing I just want to kill Danath and put an end against such an useless realm as his
Seems like a lot happened in this thread, but getting back to OP, I agree with those who are saying Quel’thalas would more likely be in the Alliance’s crosshairs under Turalyon than the ruins of Lordaron. Be it by the cajoling of the more fanatical forces of the Light or the persuasion of a Void possessed Alleria, that seems like the most likely next move.
Of course knowing Blizzard some random faction of the Horde will try to blow up the Deeprun Tram or something in retaliation for such-and-such and that will be viewed as the excuse for the factions to resume hostilities - ending with the Horde being shamed for not being able to control its radical elements and the Alliance being totally justified in driving the Blood Elves out of their home.
Once again, people are misrepresenting the event and skipping over context.
Firstly, Turalyon himself did not torture the Orc mother, nor the Human smuggler. He restrained them with the Light so they would not do themselves any terrible harm. Secondly, he did everything in his power to avoid Alleria using the void to forcefully extract the needed information first, so it was quite literally the last resort. If they had not been pressed for time its unlikely they’d have even done it at all.
Why? Did the Horde take the fall for the Fel enemy expansions? The Undead ones?
I’ve said before I’m find with AU Xe’ra literally turning Turalyon into a Lightbound puppet so thoroughly controlled he may as well already be dead. Let’s not see anymore character assassination along the way. Turalyon would oppose Xe’ra and Yrel’s attempts to conquer Azeroth via the Light, not join them.
And what they did was monstrous and resulted in nothing tangible, because they didn’t even get that information out of the one they were actively torturing if I remember correctly. Nor would it have mattered, because Sylvie ousted her damned self by shattering the sky. But out of an undead who couldn’t bare to watch what they were doing. And gussy it up all you want, I get the natural impulse with any Alliance/Alliance character action is to invalidate it, whitewash it, or bury it under justifications … but Turalyon did use the Light to restrain someone so they could be tortured by his Void Wife.
As for your other question. No, we were totally irrelevant in both of those. The Forsaken were turned into minor F Conflict antagonists rather than getting anything substantive against Arthas. The BEs weren’t involved at all in WotLK. The MU Orcs weren’t allowed even a footnote in the downfall of the Legion. In both cases, their story relevance was consumed nearly completely by Alliance leaning Light users.
No argument here. It doesn’t get more blatantly evil.
Not true. Page 93:
The very next line is the Forsaken apothecary saying he’ll tell them everything, but Alleria was getting the information. I might add its rather interesting that once they’d finished Alleria has this line on page 94 into page 95.
People seem determined to make what Alleria and Turalyon did into solid proof that they themselves took great joy in doing it, had no compassion at all, etc… It was literally the last resort.
On page 104, Alleria has this line demonstrating her method proved fruitful with the smuggler.
Except I’m not. You’ll never hear me say that it was anything less than pure evil. That doesn’t mean the intent was malicious, that Alleria or Turalyon took any kind of perverse joy in it, nor that they lacked compassion.
You want to say they did something evil? By all means, I will never NOT agree with you.
You want to say they’re heartless evil demons looking for an excuse to unleash their true inner darkness? I will tell you you’re wrong, that sometimes good people do bad things for the right or wrong reasons.
You want to say Alleria and Turalyon should be held accountable for these actions? I won’t disagree with you. Jaina should bring up their behavior, have them held accountable, etc… It doesn’t change the fact that they themselves are not evil.
Well, outside of the Sunreavers.
But you were missing the point. The Horde didn’t, “take the fall,” for any of that happening. I don’t think they’ve ever taken the fall for any major cosmological force invading Azeroth, not the New Horde at least.