Is there any debate that WoW is P2W?

Can you end up at the top of any of the in-game competition by pouring cash in the game?
Can I access the top 50 mythic raid kill by pouring cash into the game? No
Can I get the highest M+ Key done in a season by pouring cash into the game? No
Can I get the highest PVP rating/win PVP competition by pouring cash into the game? No
None of the in game competition can be won by throwing cash at the game.

Can I buy clothing that makes my character numerically stronger? Yes
Is there any in-game competition or leader board for numerically superior gear? No

You buying clothing doesn’t make you win the pageant. You’re just dressed.

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That is not the means test or the point. OP stated that because you can buy gold, and he listed four points, you automatically p2w. Regardless of whether it was against the TOS or not, the option still existed and therefore means that you have always had that option as a way to win. The only way you lost is if you got caught doing it.

Well I haven’t been playing retail since 9.0 really. I mostly just place Classic TBC now because retail has really sucked lately.

Can you wind up completing milestone achievements in M+, PvP, and Raiding by paying with gold for carries? (Such as Gladiator, M+ achievements and raiding boosts, Cutting Edge achievement and carries for Mythic Raid gear) Yes.

You can’t buy your way into a world 1st kill, or top 10 PvP’ers, or the very highest M+ key completed on time. But you can buy carries with gold which gives you the best gear, the highest In Game achievements (that aren’t world 1st, server 1st kills).

Because you can convert gold into services doesn’t mean its P2W. However its P2W when you can buy gold with IRL money from the game company itself.

P2W differs for most people.

My Definition is can you continuously pay IRL money TO the company (not 3rd party unless 3rd party is allowed by said company) to improve your player power.

Because you can continuously buy WoW tokens for gold in Retail its P2W. In Classic there is no option for WoW tokens and you cant pay Blizzard for gold and Classic isn’t P2W you have to get your gold for player services from doing in game activities.

That’s where everyone likes you makes the mistake.
“Winning” is a concept that entails competition/contest, there is no competition in achievements.
You bought a badge of participation and your arguing it’s the winners trophy. The winners trophy was won by someone else who actually topped the charts.
Any true P2W game allows you top any charts as long as your willing to throw your cash at it.

By your own admission, you can’t do that in wow. The thing is, those are the only thing that can objectively be won in the game.

EDit: Grammar

People actually have to debate it ? Outside of the subjective definition of Winning (if you have to define Win in a MMO perhaps it is Getting the best Gear or Beating the hardest bosses) you can Pay real life money for in game currency to buy direct power upgrades in game (this via directly buying gear on AH alone is enough to call it P2W but then you can also pay for boosts with gold to also obtain direct power upgrades)

Pay to Win 100% on the PVE side, and despite what every PVP one trick on here says…PVE is the majority of this game still.

Just because I have nothing better to do today other than being “that guy…”

You don’t buy the gold from Blizzard. You pay another player $15 to buy their gold. Blizzard just takes a $5 transaction fee and in fact, provides you nothing.

But Blizz enables the conversion via their platform they are enabling you to spend RL money to directly purchase currency from another player instead of keeping it entirley in the game (i.e trading items in game for gold or services) and as long as that platform is available you can spend more than the $15 a month subsription to literally get ahead in the game.

It will always be that way with WoW Token.

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Just an extra step with the same end result. You are buying an item from Blizzard where you sell to a player thus converting it into Gold (and who know’s maybe Blizzard auto generates the gold if a buyer can’t be found, I don’t think ive ever heard of anyone saying there WoW token auction expired).

Point is you paying Blizzard for Gold. The amount of gold you get fluctuates of supply/demand.

It’s still P2W.

Paying RL money saves you time. The entire game, every system in it almost, is driven by Item Level. RL Money converts to Gold that directly converts to Item Level right now.

Getting in groups (or even literally queuing for certain activities) are gated by Item Level. Your power is determined by Item Level. As long as RL Money leads a direct path to higher Ilvl, it is pay to win and there is zero way to argue against that unless you are simply ignorant to the concept, at which point …spend less time on the forums and more time in school. :confused:

If the end result is the only thing that matters then we can expand the definition of P2W beyond the point of usefulness. That’s why I think distinctions like this matter. Another player provides the gold. Another player provides the carry. You’re not getting anything from Blizzard with the money you pay them. I don’t think that markets in general are an example of P2W. If gold sellers aren’t P2W then I don’t see the WoW token as P2W either. In both cases you’re getting gold from another player and using that gold to purchase anything that any other player with the same amount of gold can get. It’s not like the WoW token is the only way to get gold. If it was, then the token itself would be a huge flop as no one would be able to buy it. The fact that the gold you get with the WoW token existed before your purchase is a big deal.

I know you’re better than floating unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

Depending on how you look at it you could say it all comes out in the wash in the end. If you buy a WoW token and then use that gold to boost up a month of progress then you pay the same amount of money as someone who played the game normally.

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The way you define P2W ignores the concept of “winning” all together.
If this concept goes out to window then literally every transaction in your life fits the P2W definition.
If everything fits it then the game is P2W in contrast to what?
What other game are you comparing it to that wouldn’t also fit your twisted definition?

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If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck

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its always funny to me that people say wow is pay to win when it really isnt

just because people offer services in exchange for gold and you can buy gold with a token does not mean its pay to win, its pay for services, which is not a 100% win

it WOULD be pay to win IF and ONLY IF blizzard THEMSELVES offers services that require no player interactions in exchange for rewards

think about it for more than 2 seconds, if wow was REALLY pay to win, then you would actually see stuff on the blizzard store like “pay $30 for 90k artifact power” or “buy a full semi-BiS set of armor for $40” (no do not bring up BoE’s cause those actually need players to fulfill, that ISNT pay to win no matter how much you stomp your feet)

lets say even if, in the off chance, they ban token and gold trading for services entirely, whats stopping yall to complain about guild runs for friends? what if they offer the same exact services but for friends instead of gold, what is stopping you guys from making threads like “being in a big guild that runs only with friends is too OP, pls nerf friendship” cause my old guild before transferring horde and A-52 just handed AOTC and PvP rewards to friends less skillful.

idk I just see this ant-hill that you guys make a mountain out of real funny

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Sounds like excuses.

It also doesn’t change the fact that WoW isn’t pay to win

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/thread, for sure

All I see is a lot of players trying to defend paying for instant gratification, rather than playing the game for themselves…

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I see a lot of bad players making assumptions.

I defend the token because it’s not pay to win.

None of my toons have ever been boosted.

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If you’re neutral about it then your stance is basically that you’re fine with it existing so that answers the question.

I believe this logic is akin to sticking your head in the sand because the direct impact of a decision doesn’t appear to obviously impact you. All game decisions impacts everyone, but to varying degrees. If Blizzard deletes LFR you can say you raid heroic so it doesn’t impact you, but the truth is people may quit in droves so the game may die, or those LFR players may step up to do normal and heroic which helps you round out your roster. Or maybe they start buying a lot more carries because they lost their content.

I think the big disconnect with people is guild life vs pug life. If you’re in a guild, and I think people should be, it’s easy to say nothing impacts me on my island. But anyone in the pug life probably has a much different opinion on how the WoW token and boosting has impacted their ability to play.

I mean…that design concept is a fundamental pillar of how P2W games are designed to encourage a certain portion of people to hand over money because they don’t want to spend the time playing the game in that way. The person grinding their time spends days, weeks, or month attempting to accomplish something while the other person is done in a hot second and moving on to the next. The former struggles to keep up with the latter if it’s even possible.

For me I just want to buy a game and play it. If the game is single player with cash shop options I can ignore it (so long as the game isn’t balanced around assuming you’ll buy), but I still don’t like it. When you start talking about an MMO and people start trying to figure out the right or wrong way to play it to keep up with everyone else then you’ve created an incentive to buy and if they don’t want to buy they may turn the game off.

There are brand new players getting into the game still and for them amassing hundreds of thousands of gold to get on par is a massive undertaking and if they aren’t ponying up they may shut down. Part of these problems lie on Blizzard for massive systems that are overwhelming to jump into as well.

Ever try to PvP? Ever try to rank in arena? Ever get roflstomped by people boosting? Ever run into a boosted player who stomped you because his gear trumped your skill?

Think any of this ever happens? Because it does. And then of course if you’re in the pug world recruiting people are they gonna take the undergeared player or the geared player? They don’t know he’s boosted, but when they see his ilevel pop up who gets picked?

If you ask me all of these things are fine until you throw real world money into the mix because now you are allowing success within the game because of out of game wealth. Now someone is getting stomped or passed up because someone spent their paycheck on boosts.

And while I disagree that’s a fair take, I just don’t think people need to pussyfoot about what is going on.

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A person might pay for a carry to get the AoTC mount. That doesn’t make them a winner, in fact, they were probably dead most of the fight. That isn’t winning, it’s getting a mount and maybe a few achieve points. I personally don’t think a player with high achievements is winning, it just means they play a lot and read achievement text etc.

In PVP, you can pay to catch up a bit, but you certainly won’t be a winner, since that takes skill.

A person may get a few 15 carries, but there is no way they can get a 20.

No top players paid cash for that honor.

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This is a conversation or debate that I’ve had on these forums quite a few times. It’s pretty much settled that WoW is in fact pay to win. Over time the people that disagreed with me, and were so sure of themselves… well, they’re on my side now. What a sad prize to win.

:man_shrugging:

Well put. True