Is the World of Warcraft story anti-justice?

[Ikaar-dreadmaul]

@Jandarus-dathremar

The Horde attack the Alliance for something they did,

That what the Horde in lore always says, but it’s complete BS. The Horde attack the Alliance for not completly rolling over and showing their bellies after some unjustified attack they haven’t payed for.

@Jandarus-dathremar

And so you justify the Horde obliterating Theramore.

1. Horde attacked the Kul’tirans pre-emptively, the Alliance attacked the Horde (during Cata) in response to Horde aggression.

2. The Alliance purposefully minimized destruction to Zuldazar while the Horde made the destruction of Theramore the main concern.

3.The Alliance challenged Rhastakhan to either surrender or die in direct combat while the Horde obliterated who was left at Theramore in a sneak attack.

@Smallioz-kromcrush

If you keep defeating the same army all you are doing is postponning your defeat. You need to win a siege everytime to survive. But the attacker needs to win once and its over.

Funnily enough this was the logic Illidan used during Legion to justify invading Argus even though it put all of Azeroth at risk and it not only worked, but ended up saving all of existance.

This is also why every Alliance ‘victory’ is so hollow, cause it feels like all we’re doing is kicking the can down the road.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Explain how “scientists have (I say supposedly) disproved Creationism”; if the proof is as obvious as you claim, it should be easy to explain. What is your proof? You claim you don’t want to debate me because it’s obvious, but I know a cop-out when I see it.

There have been and still are many scientists who are Creationists (eg; Gregor Mendel, Louis Pasteur… Robert Bakker and William Campbell if you want examples who are still alive). And they’re just four of the many Christian examples, factor in religious scientists from other religions as well…

If you didn’t want to defend your claim here, you should’ve thought of that before expressing a one-sided view of an important nuanced subject on a public forum. You brought real-life religion into this thread, I made it to talk about the story of the game.

[Kazthan-argent-dawn]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

You just did it again; touting your claim as “basic” or “mundane” knowledge, trying to frame anyone who rejects your claim as stupid, uninformed or lying

OK that’s insane. If that’s your take away so be it.
This really shows how fastly different our expieriences are. You can’t even imagine cultural differences. Yes that’s how it is in many developed nations. For sure in Europe.
If you want to see anything else in such a mundain statement of fact, that’s on you. You can see more below.

Maybe this will help you understand why it’s such a different world to me. No idea if that’s the original, don’t think so. I don’t really have time for more right know. It’s only meant to show you how different our experiances are.

US Pastor Gets Mind Blown in Atheistic Europe!

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

If you don’t care about winning, why bother replying to me so much?

Why wouldn’t I replay? Especialy since you are that insistent and seem to think I want to frame you in a bad way. It’s strange to me, but oh well.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

I say you’re wrong, but not stupid or a liar. But a Harvard University lecture from the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study isn’t “basic” or “mundane” knowledge, so you’ve outed yourself a bit.

I’m not saying the study is basic. The basics of geology however are basic where I live. we learn about the formation of rivers and oceans, plate tectonic, different layers in the record etc. Every child and teen learns those things. It’s part of the regular education.

Once more, I did not once call you stupid. You have to understand though that evangelist sounding arguments are very different from what most Christians elsewhere belive. It’s something very different.

Uff creationism… will see.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

There have been and still are many scientists who are Creationists

No. Simply no. That’s almost only a thing in the U.S. and their number is marginal at best.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

I’d be happy to discuss this further elsewhere, what’s the best way to contact you? How about BattleTags then we can exchange details there?

It’s an option if you really want. Keep in mind the time difference and I’m usually only on there during evenenings. I have a little more time for the forums.
Cegesh#2406

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

You’re doing it again, only responding to select parts of my comment. Why do you keep doing that? It’s a common trend I’ve observed in online debates. We’re as insistent as each other, but on opposite sides. By the way, I said it’s an Appeal to Flattery because you called it basic knowledge, which infers negative things about those who refuse to accept those claims.

Back on topic, why didn’t you share those basic or mundane facts instead of a university lecture from an advanced institute?

What are the differences between evangelist arguments and “most Christians elsewhere”? Do you know what qualifies a Christian as evangelist?

You’re wrong about Creationist scientists. Just because the media currently gives the spotlight to non-religious scientists (eg; Neil Tyson, Stephen Gould or the late Stephen Hawking) doesn’t mean Creationist - as in those who believe the universe is a product of Divine Intelligent Design - scientists are an edge who’s marginal at best, in the U.S or elsewhere. For citation, a 2009 Pew Research survey identified 33% - one third of scientists - as believing in God, 18% believing in a higher power, 41% who don’t believe in either and the remainder where uncertain or refused to answer. Not “marginal” or an “edge number” at all. I can’t post links here so I can’t give all my sources here.

I’ve asked these types of questions myself before and after becoming a Christian. I know there’s Christians ignorant of science, (such as the one in that video you shared) just like there are non-Christian religious people and non-religious people ignorant of science.

Ideologues trying to make science a tool against religion has been going on for a long time. “Under these conditions it is no wonder, that the movement of atheists, which declares religion to be just a deliberate illusion, invented by power-seeking priests, and which has for the pious belief in a higher Power nothing but words of mockery, eagerly makes use of progressive scientific knowledge and in a presumed unity with it, expands in an ever faster pace its disintegrating action on all nations of the earth and on all social levels. I do not need to explain in any more detail that after its victory not only all the most precious treasures of our culture would vanish, but – which is even worse – also any prospects at a better future.” Max Planck (1857 - 1947), Physicist, Father of quantum theory, Nobel Prize Winner, Christian (case in point, look at current China, the world’s least religious and most atheistic country)

I’d be happy to discuss this with you further. My battletag is TinyPowrTank#1893

[Kazthan-argent-dawn]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

You’re doing it again, only responding to select parts of my comment. Why do you keep doing that? It’s a common trend I’ve observed in online debates. We’re as insistent as each other, but on opposite sides.

Because the rest isn’t interesseting enough to respond in the first place. The quotes stand well on their own. I feel like the rest would simply go in to different directions in the first place.
One more reason is to keep it shorter and to the essential argument.
It all depends.
For the future: If you feel like something went missing, just mention it and most people will likley adress it. Perhaps I will simply use full quotes of you in the future.

I also made it clear I’m not interested to talk about those things in a WoW forum. So I tried to make it short. Even more so, no reason to go on here if you are willing to talk somewehre else.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

By the way, I said it’s an Appeal to Flattery because you called it basic knowledge, which infers negative things about those who refuse to accept those claims.

It’s part of the regular education in Europe. Really, belive whatever you want. If that’s how you want to see it, so be it.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Do you know what qualifies a Christian as evangelist?

I do.

Most Christians here are distancing themself from them. I hope you don’t belive the world is only 6000 years old

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

You’re wrong about Creationist scientists

Not at all.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

For citation, a 2009 Pew Research survey identified 33% - one third of scientists - as believing in God, 18% believing in a higher power, 41% who don’t believe in either and the remainder where uncertain or refused to answer

Let’s just say this number is true. You understand those are not creationists right? That’s not the same thing.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Ideologues trying to make science a tool against religion has been going on for a long time.

That’s not what I’m doing. Knowledge simply brought me to the understaning that many religions are in flat out contradiction to reality and there is no evidence for a diety.

Let’s end this here.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Where in Europe? Italy? France? Romania? Ireland? The question still stands; why didn’t you share part of that European curriculum that supposedly refutes the Flood instead of a video from a U.S. university?

You say you do… but you’re confusing and conflating evangelical Christians with Young Earth Creationist Christians (the latter are the “the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old” crowd, I’m more of an Old Earth Creationist).

What evidence do you have to doubt that survey? Go to their website pewforum-dot-org and look up “Scientists and Belief” if you require further proof.

I never said you’re one of those ideologues, just explained part of the reason behind the false “science vs religion” dichotomy. What is your standard of evidence for a deity? (You’ve avoided several of my questions, also undermining your claims, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt). I’ve sent you a BattleTag request if you want to discuss this further there.

[Kazthan-argent-dawn]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Where in Europe? Italy? France? Ireland?

Everywere.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The question still stands; why didn’t you share part of that European curriculum instead of a video from a U.S. university?

Mostly because I did not want to go on a huge longwinded argument here, which is spam to most here and in the worst case would waste both our times.
I awnsered this question before you even asked it. It was to give you an idea, that’s it.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

You say you do… but you’re confusing and conflating evangelical Christians with Young Earth Creationist Christians (the latter are the “the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old crowd”, I’m more of an Old Earth Creationist).

No, I absolutley don’t. I used the term evangelists to make a distinction and to be honest, this U.S. tearm creationists are using for themselves (if not even evangelical) is not the same thing as other evangelical churches, like Protestants.
My family has many Catholics within, more in the older generation. Even though the area I live in is since the reformation majority dominated by Protestants, or well was in the past. Now non-belivers are more in the area.
I grew up with both, but more Protestantism because of the school.

I’m glad you don’t belong to the young earth creationists. That’s a lot more reasonable.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

What evidence do you have to doubt that survey? Go to their website pewforum-dot-org and look up “Scientists and Belief” if you require further proof.

It seems like a high number. What I am rejecting here is your claim of their belives. Beliving in any religion is:

1. Not the same thing as being a Christian. Some are in fact Deist, others Jewish etc.
2. Even if Christian, it dosen’t mean they are creationists at all. Most Christians aren’t creationists.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

I never said you’re one of those ideologues, just explained part of the reason behind the false “science vs religion” dichotomy. What is your standard of evidence for a deity? (You’ve avoided several of my questions, also undermining your claims, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt). I’ve sent you a BattleTag request if you want to discuss this further there.

Fair and good to know.
Evidence would be if a god / gods would talk to us, show themselfes. There are different things.
One important thing here is if some claim about a god contradicts what we know about reality, we can assume it’s not real.

Shani Shingnapur in India here is interesting. The inhabitants of Shani Shingnapur claim Shani is protecting them and that’s why no one would ever steal. Well according to the police from there this seems to be true.
Of course one can doubt it. It’s interesseting though.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

I’ve sent you a BattleTag request if you want to discuss this further there.

Allright. I need serveral hours still until my workday is over.

[Dalrond-moon-guard]

I am starting to believe that the problem with WoW’s story is that the story does not revolve around OUR characters. There is so much focus on NPC characters being the big ones, that blizzard can scarce let them go, they can’t just kill off NPC characters, because we players need someone to follow, and blizzard is so creatively banktrupt that they can hardly create new characters for us to like and wanting to follow.

Looks at the stark contrast of WoW’s story conclusions, and FFXIV’s story conclusions. In FFXIV the story revolves around YOUR character, YOUR character is the focus and this does not change at all. NPCs are supporting characters to YOUR story. And the devs have been determined to stick to that, which have clearly worked to the story’s favor. You are given moral dilemmas, you somewhat solve these moral dilemmas. Characters can die for emotional effect, because you are more interested in seeing where YOUR character’s story goes next, rather than being more interested in where Sylvanas’ story goes next.

There is no division of the fans in regards to what NPCs should be favored, or highly regarded, because YOUR character is at the center. It can make you feel sorry for a bad guy, despite atrocities committed, because you know the bad guy will eventually meet his/her end at your hands. Those who have played through Shadowbringers can disagree with the villain’s methods and intention, but they can still understand where he is coming from.

World of Warcraft’s story is not anti-justice, it is just a poor decision in what type of story it wants to tell.

Spoiler Warning for those of you, who went ahead, gave FFXIV a try, enjoyed it and want to see it to it’s end.

FFXIV Shadowbringers - Ending Cutscenes (Spoilers!)

[Kazthan-argent-dawn]

@Dalrond-moon-guard

I am starting to believe that the problem with WoW’s story is that the story does not revolve around OUR characters.

I disagree, depending on your meaning of it.

@Dalrond-moon-guard

There is so much focus on NPC characters being the big ones, that blizzard can scarce let them go, they can’t just kill off NPC characters, because we players need someone to follow, and blizzard is so creatively banktrupt that they can hardly create new characters for us to like and wanting to follow.

Looks at the stark contrast of WoW’s story conclusions, and FFXIV’s story conclusions. In FFXIV the story revolves around YOUR character, YOUR character is the focus and this does not change at all. NPCs are supporting characters to YOUR story.

Well, no.
Yes you are the hero. You are the main focus. I would argue though it’s not your story in FFXIV. You aren’t playing a rpg. You are the hero.
You are basically playing the story of somone else and here comes another problem. You are the warrior of the light (general, leader of your order, champion of Azeroth) and everyone else is too!
Those are two aspects I really dislike.

I think what you are trying to say can make sense. Give the player more agency. I would disagree with putting the player more in focous though because it could, or would with the current devs only hurt immersion and your RP choices even more.

I would love a better system, more RP choices, but I can’t stand FFXIV’S aproach on this.

[Dalrond-moon-guard]

@Kazthan-argent-dawn

Well, no.
Yes you are the hero. You are the main focus. I would argue though it’s not your story in FFXIV. You aren’t playing a rpg. You are the hero.
You are basically playing the story of somone else and here comes another problem. You the warrior of the light

It is still your character, it revolved around your character. It may not be a RPG-driven, choice-based story, but it still revolves around your own character. It is YOUR character’s story. Not the story of some NPC around you.

@Kazthan-argent-dawn

(general, leader of your order, champion of Azeroth) and everyone else is too!

The problem is not so much this, to be fair. It is that WoW’s story tries to make you a nobody and somebody at the same time. Take Skyrim as one example, as another story where it tries to make you a nobody and a somebody at the same time. It is a clash of two very different things.

You are either a normal adventurer, doing normal adventurer stuff. Or you are the Last Dragonborn, the hero of legend.

WoW and Skyrim tries to do both, that is a mistake.

FFXIV commits to your character being a hero of legend throughout its story.

The Secret World MMORPG actually did a you are a nobody storyline. You are just one among millions.

It has been a long time since I played that game, and I never got extremely far, but that was the gist of it from what I saw.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

To clarify, are you saying country of Europe has primary school or High School classes were geographical “evidence” against the Flood is part of the curriculum?

Thank you for clarifying what you mean about evangelicals.

By the way, every Christian is a creationist. Creationist means; “a person who believes that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account.” or “relating to the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation.” Every theist, deist and every theistic religion I know if is one (this is also to address your point that not every person in the Pew survey is necessarily Christian). The difference is are we Young Earth, Old Earth or undecided (with other variations depending on the religion).

There are plenty of accounts God showing Himself and talking to people. Some are true, some are not, and which are which is a case-by-case situation.

Talk to you later, then.

[Renautus-arathor]

I’m a theosophist not an atheist. Which means that I actually do believe in intellegent design. Pythagoras and his philosophy proves that science and religion are the same thing and should not be at odds with eachother, so no, dispite your accusations I’m not anti-religion, I’m just highly critical of Evangelicalism and Puritanical Christian beliefs because they have become radical and ignore logic. That being said, I don’t think there’s any facts in debating creationist flood or orther creationist pseudoscience, because it’s not relevant to the topic at hand. Like other’s here, we have asked you to keep the topic on Warcraft.

This is the last time I will respond to you here unless the topic pivots back to the concepts of intellegent design in the lore of the Eternal Ones. Or the concepts of justice and ethics.

No one owes you a debate.

[Chronorabbit-azshara]

@Dalrond-moon-guard

I am starting to believe that the problem with WoW’s story is that the story does not revolve around OUR characters.

IMO it does not have to revolve around our character, and pre-Cata time had it well enough. But, what is relevant, that the key (afaia) of the videogame format is the player experience.

It’s not a book. Here the narrative part is just a part of the framework, contributor to the overall experience. And the devs seemingly forgot, or do not care, that no NPC story, or theme, or mechanic, worth it if in the end the player feel like

An example of it would be such meme image

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/itoxr8/playing_alliance_and_winning_the_faction_war

What was the intention of the devs, how they see it, what they think about the topic is inconsequential. If this is how it feels to the player, empty words are of no value.

A well put together description of the stuff would be from a rather popular (and tbh it deserves to be way more popular) presentation. Game is different, game design principles are the same (and to a degree they’re the same for software in general, not just video games)

'Magic: the Gathering': 20 Years, 20 Lessons Learned

– Don’t confuse “interesting” with “fun”.

IMO our character may be the driving force of the story, or can be a witness to the episodes of the story, but regardless, the player experience is more important than any NPC stories / dev preferences for what and how to do.

---

gl hf

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

That image is perfect.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Maybe World of Warcraft is basing the laws of the cosmos in their setting on Theosophy.

And I was talking to Kazthan with that comment, not you. I do thank you for clarifying where you stand, and call out your hypocritical criticism; the global flood should be dismissed because it’s “pseudoscience”, but not reincarnation?

Only two people have asked me to get off this topic, you and Kazthan, and you both brought it on yourselves by bringing it up.

[Jandarus-dathremar (Jandarus)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Only two people have asked me to get off this topic, you and Kazthan, and you both brought it on yourselves by bringing it up.

Three now.

The thread is titled “Is the World of Warcraft story anti-justice?” You are wildly off-topic and getting further with posts about mythical floods and creationism. Actual religions shouldn’t be brought into an unrelated, and if they are, the best thing you can do is let it slide and maybe start a thread dedicated to that topic.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Ironically I was about to drop the subject completely until you chimed in, Jandarus (assuming you’re not an alt being used as a sockpuppet for Kaz or Ren).

My comment still stands since you hadn’t dropped your two cents yet, and only did so because you’re on their side (if I hadn’t responded to them, but they kept ranting about the Flood being fictional, I doubt you’d have said anything).

I won’t bother giving you my rebuttals this time because some of them are already in the thread. Go see them for yourself if you want.

[Renautus-arathor]

Warcraft mythology is steeped in theology, but you have to realize theology is more than Catholicism. WoW’s entire Shadowlands mythology is based on the philosophy of alchemy and other ‘mystery religions.’

It also takes framework from Kabbalah and islamic mysteries like Zorastranism, (Oribos is a eight pointed star, The Seat of Creation in Islamic faith)

There’s also aspects of Mirthaism and pagan polytheism. The concept of Azeroth is based on both Sophism, Shakti, and Perusha.

Comparative mythology is the framework of Warcraft’s theology.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

My latest comment was that maybe Warcraft’s cosmology is based on Theosophy; the religion you said you follow. Just as Theosophy takes from multiple sources, so too does WoW’s cosmology; that is what I was saying.

Theosophy has reincarnation, which definitely exists in WoW. Theosophy has a concept of God, which may or may not be in WoW (I’ve heard leaks talking about a concept called the “Clockmaker” who is at the top of the setting’s cosmic hierarchy). Theosophy has multiple types of evolution and proto-races, which are also in WoW (Trolls and Troggs).

[Renautus-arathor]

We are just characters experiencing WoW through our own PoV’s but theosophy is such a personal thing. It’s often complimented by a spiritual curiosity. Steiner’s theosophy is influenced by Hermeticism and The Kybalion.

Azeroth’s dreams = reality is very ‘on point’ to this. If “God is Consiousness” than Azeroth is the current God model. If the Jailer usurps her, he would be the new God and his consciousness would shape the universe.