Is Shadowlands really an expanded universe of WOW lore?

[Arthenius-nemesis]

I follow this forum a lot although I don’t participate much, and a recurring argument I see here is players saying that WOW devs tried to expand the lore through Shadowlands.

I think symbols are very important for you to establish a franchise with the robustness of Warcraft. And from what I’ve been following the lore in recent years, my perception is that we are not witnessing an attempt (even if poorly executed) by the devs to expand the universe of WOW, but simply to undo the previously constructed lore.

Shadowlands in many ways was the culmination of that process, and I think the amount of destroyed symbols in the game that we have today makes it very difficult for the player to even understand the plot that is being built.

Let’s start with Shadowlands cinematic. It would not be inaccurate to state that the Lich King is the greatest symbol of the Warcraft franchise. And that while from a narrative perspective it is the great background that brought us from the RTS game to the MMO version of the game.

In this sense, at the narrative level, the destruction of the helm of domination was not only the destruction of an item, but the deconstruction of the last 20 years of Warcraft. Meaning that an old symbol of warcraft lore would be replaced by a new symbol.

And I think that’s where the problems begin with such a bold attempt to remake your lore. Any symbol of fundamental value such as the helm of domination carries with it the meaning of all elements of a narrative. And if you want to destroy a symbol with this meaning it would be so much better if you have a very good symbol to put it in its place.

And I think that’s where some lore deconstruction problems arise where the Lich king’s helm and its figure itself end up being the culmination of a destruction without putting anything in place. In recent lore that Sargeras was never the agent behind his own actions. That actually the Legion was ultimately a sub-army of the Jailer so to speak.

We also saw that all Horde symbologies were basically abandoned, for example the warchief function being totally diluted by the reigns of two tyrants, and fundamentally aspects of the Orcish Horde and its lore by extension being seen as traces of a primitive society that corroborated situations destructive to the entire Horde.

In the Alliance we saw the erasure of all races in the faction in the face of the exacerbated protagonism of humans. And mostly we follow the slow demise of the kaldorei lore, with the culmination that an isolationist race like them and mostly attached to their own territory loses its greatest symbol because of the mad decisions of an overseas king.

We saw further on the cosmic level the complete reconstruction of what cosmic forces are, and the implications that the specter of death had on basically all others. In addition to having had the introduction of these mysterious beings called first ones.

Not to mention the destruction of most of the orc lore that went down during Warlords of Draenor. The bizarre characterization of Sylvanas totally out of character. In addition to the destruction as a result of the forsaken lore.

Which brings me to the question of this topic that I would like to hear from you. Is what we’ve seen in recent years part of a universe expansion process, with new symbolic signifiers, or are we simply following the trajectory of a new team of developers who have a latent and explicit desire to undo the entire warcraft background?

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

@Arthenius-nemesis

Let’s start with Shadowlands cinematic. It would not be inaccurate to state that the Lich King is the greatest symbol of the Warcraft franchise. And that while from a narrative perspective it is the great background that brought us from the RTS game to the MMO version of the game.

It’s the greatest symbol if you were already a fan of Warcraft, but other than that, the greatest symbol of it today, in popular culture, is most likely the South Park episode, where they didn’t say a single character’s name.

I guess the new symbol may be the First Ones, if they expand on them.

@Arthenius-nemesis

And I think that’s where some lore deconstruction problems arise where the Lich king’s helm and its figure itself end up being the culmination of a destruction without putting anything in place. In recent lore that Sargeras was never the agent behind his own actions. That actually the Legion was ultimately a sub-army of the Jailer so to speak.

Yes, they listed the cosmic forces, but apparantly, the most “head” of one of them is being manipulated by the Jailer? Putting the Jailer behind everything was a mistake. It just feels really cheap, is all I can say.

@Arthenius-nemesis

We also saw that all Horde symbologies were basically abandoned, for example the warchief function being totally diluted by the reigns of two tyrants, and fundamentally aspects of the Orcish Horde and its lore by extension being seen as traces of a primitive society that corroborated situations destructive to the entire Horde.

Unfortunately, that’s how it’s been since Cataclysm. But, since the Warchief was always an absolute ruler, it did make sense for an American company, especially one with Blizzard’s “issues” to villainze someone like that repeatedly.

@Arthenius-nemesis

In the Alliance we saw the erasure of all races in the faction in the face of the exacerbated protagonism of humans. And mostly we follow the slow demise of the kaldorei lore, with the culmination that an isolationist race like them and mostly attached to their own territory loses its greatest symbol because of the mad decisions of an overseas king.

Well, they haven’t been isolationist since they joined the Alliance, which made no sense, since they killed humans, and were forgiven easily. I didn’t even know that Night Elves and humans fought, until I saw the description of the Ashenvale Chimaera mount. I think it’s only a matter of time before they start shipping humans and night elves, the ones who are left I mean. I don’t view that as a good or bad thing, though I’m sure many Night Elf isolationism fans would think it’s bad. They added a poke quote where Tyrande hits on your character. I don’t like it. It hasn’t been removed, like Ymiron’s cursing.

@Arthenius-nemesis

We saw further on the cosmic level the complete reconstruction of what cosmic forces are, and the implications that the specter of death had on basically all others. In addition to having had the introduction of these mysterious beings called first ones.

Yes, this is a problem I had earlier. I agree.

@Arthenius-nemesis

Not to mention the destruction of most of the orc lore that went down during Warlords of Draenor. The bizarre characterization of Sylvanas totally out of character. In addition to the destruction as a result of the forsaken lore.

What do you mean by orc lore being destroyed? Are you referring to how they turned the Iron Horde from uncorrupted conquerors to fel-corrupted orcs midway through WoD? I hate that too. They were much cooler in my opinion as they were before.

I don’t know if I’d say Sylvanas acted out of character but they definitely changed the lore of the race, since Sylvanas herself was a major part of it. Now, it seems like they want to center them around Lillian Voss and Calia.

@Arthenius-nemesis

Which brings me to the question of this topic that I would like to hear from you. Is what we’ve seen in recent years part of a universe expansion process, with new symbolic signifiers, or are we simply following the trajectory of a new team of developers who have a latent and explicit desire to undo the entire warcraft background?

They are expanding the universe, by definition, no matter what. It’s just not done in a way I like.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Arthenius-nemesis

Let’s start with Shadowlands cinematic. It would not be inaccurate to state that the Lich King is the greatest symbol of the Warcraft franchise.

The first Lich King in the RTS, and the Second in Reign of Chaos and the MMORRG, yes. Bolvar, not quite so much he was pretty much depowered even before Sylvannas split his hat .

@Arthenius-nemesis

Which brings me to the question of this topic that I would like to hear from you. Is what we’ve seen in recent years part of a universe expansion process, with new symbolic signifiers, or are we simply following the trajectory of a new team of developers who have a latent and explicit desire to undo the entire warcraft background?

Yes. the second part of your question does not preclude the first.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Doness-kargath

I didn’t even know that Night Elves and humans fought, until I saw the description of the Ashenvale Chimaera mount.

Yeah Tyrande was a bit of a dick in WC3. She saw that the humans and orcs were working together. Knew that they were also against the Legion, but since the orcs killed Cenarius she viewed them all as invaders. Malfurion actually considers allying with them since they had a common enemy. The first mission in WC3 for the NE campaign has you kill a human paladin. The fourth one has you go through a human base on your way to awaken the druids of the talon.

I can imagine Medivh just facepalming from a distance when Tyrande double downed on her anger at the orcs for killing Cenarius. Even though Malfurion harbored no hard feelings and saw the bigger picture.

[Asana-moon-guard (Asana)]

It is an expansion. We knew almost nothing about the Shadowlands before this, and now we know a whole lot more. So that’s development forward into a fundamental aspect of WoW’s universe.

But stories are meant to change, not stay the same forever. Some things eventually become part of the past and new things happen to guide the future. The Alliance and Horde for example, their entire dynamic is going to change moving onwards now. The faction war is done. It doesn’t mean there’s peace or that they’re BFFs, but only that the story can do different things with them now.

And part of all these changes is WoW is not a story with a set beginning, middle and end. It’s ongoing indefinitely, there’s only so far into the future Blizz can actually plan. We’ve already moved past the previous established villains/problems from WC3, vanilla and so on. So for the long term future they have to reorient some things every now and then to suit going into newer territory.

@Arthenius-nemesis

In recent lore that Sargeras was never the agent behind his own actions. That actually the Legion was ultimately a sub-army of the Jailer so to speak.

For this part though no the Legion and Sargeras are still the same. Nothing about their story has really actually changed. The Jailer didn’t control them, he just tried to get some benefit out of their activities. Up until the formation of the Scourge he really had no effect on the Legion.

Sargeras probably didn’t even know he existed. The titan’s fall to corruption and decision to purge the universe was completely his own choice. All the dreadlords did was tell him about the Void Lord’s existence to nudge him in that direction. But it just validated the doubts and fears that had already been growing within him for countless years.

He would have learned eventually anyways and made the same choices. The Lich King was again just the two forces using each other for their own benefit. The Legion had their own plans for the Scourge and did not do it under anyone’s orders. I don’t think they lose any iconic power just because of Zovaal’s existence.

@Arthenius-nemesis

The bizarre characterization of Sylvanas totally out of character

Nothing about this is out of character. She’s still the exact same person she’s always been since being raised. Forsaken actually have an opportunity for better lore development with her not hogging the camera.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Arthenius-nemesis

In the Alliance we saw the erasure of all races in the faction in the face of the exacerbated protagonism of humans. And mostly we follow the slow demise of the kaldorei lore, with the culmination that an isolationist race like them and mostly attached to their own territory loses its greatest symbol because of the mad decisions of an overseas king.

If you are referring to Teldrassil, It was Tyrande BY HERSELF, who ordered Darkshore and Ashenvale’s defenders sent to Silithus She then later tells Anduin that she’s done this. The actions taken by Anduin were done partly on HER advice.

I also take issue with it being the “greatest symbol” since Fandral had to bypass Malfurion to do so (by putting him in a coma no less!) and also did it under Old God guidance as part of a plan to corrupt the whole works.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Asana-moon-guard

We’ve already moved past the previous established villains/problems from WC3, vanilla and so on. So for the long term future they have to reorient some things every now and then to suit going into newer territory.

They basically did this by retconning certain events so that the Old Gods (mainly N’zoth) were behind them as an example. Such as the creation of the naga and the fall of Neltharion, both of which debuted in the war of the ancients trilogy. Cataclysm focused it more towards N’zoth but mainly for Deathwing then BFA for the naga with Warbringers Azshara. It was hinted in Cata anyway that this N’zoth was at least involved with the creation of the Naga. Then we got MoP that brought in Y’shaarj. With that we got the Sha, the Mogu, the Mantid etc. Blizzard would later expand on Y’shaarj in Chronicles vol 1 by making it so he was the strongest of the Old Gods that landed on Azeroth. Which is why he was killed the way he was. The spot where he entrenched himself would later become the Well of Eternity.

Blizzard can write new material and recontextualize / retcon old material. The problem fundamentally with the Jailer is that there was no proper build up to him and how involved he was in the story prior to Shadowlands. We did have little bits in BFA, mainly the Tauren heritage armor but honestly that is not enough. Look at what I said about N’zoth. First we had the new infomation from the WotA trilogy. Then we had Cataclysm that presented N’zoth as the main Old God behind Neltharions fall from grace. It was even revealed that Neltharion willingly sided with N’zoth because the Old God promised to take away the “curse” Khaz’goroth put on the dragon. In exchange, Neltharion would help free the Old God and usher in the Hour of Twilight (see charge of the aspects short story). And we can see how that would’ve ended up in End Time if Deathwing had succeeded. Meanwhile Cata also hinted towards N’zoth’s involvement with the Naga and how N’zoth is actually underwater. One of his minions in Vashj’ir says that he will enjoy delivering you to his master below. Then we finally got confirmation in Warbringers Azshara. So we had years of expanding on the retcon presented in the WotA trilogy. For the Jailer it was, “oh yeah, he was behind the Lich King” which we learned IN Shadowlands. It is clear that these new writers do not know what effective foreshadowing is. They basically threw Azshara and N’zoth under the narrative bus in BFA. N’zoth, who was Warcrafts secondary antagonist, the first fully freed Old God is killed in the next patch after he was released. I mean what? Deathwing, a pawn of N’zoth got a whole expansion from start to finish. N’zoth basically got CoS onwards. Azshara was the face of the N’zoth leaning Old God stuff for BFA until CoS.

What happened to N’zoth was narratively criminal imo. It would be like of Bungie threw Savathun under the narrative bus in one of their expansion seasons while allowing a willing pawn of hers (Riven) to be the main villain of an expansion (Forsaken). Luckily Bungie is giving good old Sus Queen a whole expansion and has provided three seasons where she is directly involved and having two seasons; season of the hunt and season of the chosen, where she is involved but not directly. The three main ones being; Season of Arrivals where she tries and stops the Darkness from communicating with the PC. This in turn causes her sister, Xivu Arath to hunt her down (among other reasons, such as practicing necromancy. The ultimate sin to the Hive). Season of the Slicer where she commands Quria, the Dreaming Mind to create the Eternal Night. Basically the taken curse 2.0 and finally Season of the Lost where she makes a deal with Queen Mara. Mara will remove Suv’s worm and in exchange, Sav will remove the curse on the Dreaming City, stop all hosilities between the Awoken and her Brood but also release Osiris. Whom Sav “saved” from Xivu Arath’s High cerebrate after Osiris lost his ghost. Sav would also disguise herself as Osiris to hide from her sisters wrath during this time (from Season of the Hunt to Season of the Lost). But also learn more about the light and the Guardians who killed her brother Oryx the Taken King, the Worm God Xol and the taken Ahamkara Riven.

Back to Blizzard now. Iirc, we were never told officially why Sylvanas wanted Eyir. The most logical reason was so she could create new horcruxes, I mean Val’kyr. And what was Helya’s share of the bargain? How come Helya never went after Sylvanas for failing? She makes it clear that Sylvanas better not cross her. I would count failure in that boat. Nor have we been told what caused the fake Arbiter to go offline.

[Rarumas-whisperwind]

I perceive it as being the new team wants to leave a mark on the franchise. They seem willing to destroy Warcraft history in order to achieve that end.