Gear is literally the only reason I do anything in this game. If I’m not getting a possible gear upgrade out of it, I’m not going to do it.
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It’s a common enough story but I don’t see why multiple raid difficulties is to blame for the situation you find yourself in.
If anything the real culprit here is mythic raid lockouts which make it impossible for your group to pug topup players.
Mythic raid loot cannot titanforge.
More importantly, though, it’s on a weekly lockout. Forging is a probabilistic thing: the more chances you get, the higher the highest ilvl you’ll likely get out of it. Raiding, you get a very limited number of chances. In M+, you get an unlimited number of chances.
That’s why the typical mythic raider has more slots filled with M+ gear than with raid gear: because M+ gear of a given ilvl is easier to get.
Pugging supplemental players for a progression group doesn’t really work unless the core progression group is a majority of the raid. It sounds like his guild doesn’t have that many core players available.
If there were enough people who actually wanted to do mythic raiding for the challenge, though, there would now be cross realm communities establishing raid groups that didn’t requre you to leave your guild or server.
There aren’t, though, because the vast majority of players, as illustrated here, aren’t interested in content that they can’t get gear upgrades from.
Easier to get? Not really. Clearing the raid each week is still a more efficient way of getting gear than M+ is. The only difference is that you can only do it once.
Mythic raid loot can’t Titanforge but you’re still much more likely to have a 425 from a mythic raid than you are from any other source. Around 30 times more likely in fact.
That’s why the typical mythic raider has more slots filled with M+ gear than with raid gear:
This part is absolutely not true btw. Mythic raiders will typically have most slots filled with mythic raid gear.
e.g. https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/blackhand/Nyhxx
First guy I found on warcraftlogs rankings. Has exactly 1 piece of M+ gear equipped. All the rest is crafted or mythic raid gear. That 15 base ilvl difference is massive. Despite people continually exaggerating titanforging, it’s actually quite rare for something to titanforge 15 ilvls.
A mythic raiding guild will be getting 4-5 415 ilvl pieces on every boss kill - not counting bonus rolls. You might be wearing M+ gear in the first few weeks of the raid opening but by now you’re going to be wearing 415 in most slots, and the vast majority of that will be from mythic raid bosses.
Heroic raiders, sure. They will be wearing a lot of M+ gear, but that’s mostly because of favouring certain secondary stats. You certainly have a lot more choice with M+ gear in play.
Not an unbiased source - raiders care more about logs than M+ people - so it’s not surprising you found an outlier who rarely does M+. But since we’re looking at outliers, how about this guy, with not one, but two pieces of M+ gear that titanforged to the maximum of 425?
Now I’m actually curious how many 425 pieces you can find on a single raider.
Edit: wait, here’s a guy with not one, not two, but count then, five (5) pieces of M+ gear titanforged to 425:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/sargeras/Psychox
Plus a piece of 425 Azerite gear where we don’t know whether he got it from raiding or residuum.
We know exactly where azerite gear comes from though. He has Mythic Jaina Headpiece, Chestpiece from Mythic Conclave, and Shoulders from Titan Residuum. There are only one source for all these pieces.
The 2nd guy you linked (Psychox) is one of the top M+ players in the world and has likely done thousands of M+ runs to get those titanforges. He’s literally the #3 ranked Demon Hunter in the world. He doesn’t really represent the average person in any way lol.
Likewise the Druid is the #4 ranked Druid in the world in M+.
Do you really think these guys think that their M+ loot is spoiling their raiding experience? Seems that they live for M+.
It’s not. Just questioning if four is necessary. I haven’t really tried pugging raids yet. I really should. Anything that would make doing so easier, I’m on board with.
While I completely agree with this, I still find it odd that of the three titanforged 420+ pieces I’ve gotten this season, only one was from Mythic+, and I run keys constantly. I don’t have a count, but at least 100 runs from the 25+/50+/20+ count on my IO addon. And that’s just timed runs. One piece! Very early in the season too. First week, I think. The other piece was from a heroic raid, which I only did about 5 times. The third was from Ivus, who I’ve killed three times on this toon. Statistically, they all should’ve been from M+.
Our core’s okay, I think. I’m relatively new myself, just joining back in December in Uldir. I’m told a lot of folks just got burnt out after getting AOTC and don’t really want to progress Mythic.
I would be totally down with cross-realm communities for raiding mythic. Anything to facilitate pugs is good by me.
You’re absolutely right that I have no interest in content I can’t get gear upgrades from. Gear is my primary motivator. I want the numbers to go up. The item levels. The neck levels. The IO score. The DPS I do (which also comes from gear upgrades…) the number of raid bosses I’ve killed. How far I’ve progressed the raid tier and the keystone scene each season – that’s what makes WoW fun for me. Of course I enjoy the challenge, and the social aspects as well, but getting gear that’s an upgrade is sweet. It’s awesome. You all know it is.
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There are pieces you can only get from residuum? But I misread anyway, none of those pieces are 425 (of course, since Azerite gear can’t be 425). The cape is his one 425 piece from raiding, versus 5 from M+.
So find the top raiders in the world, and let’s see whether they have five 425 pieces from raiding.
Yes, the mythic dungeon loot (which is 370 in mythic 0 dungeons) can only be obtained at higher item levels through residuum. His shoulders are from Waycrest Manor (the 370 version of them at least). The 415 version he has is from the Titan Residuum vendor.
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Well they probably wouldn’t have five. But then they probably have not spent anywhere near as much time raiding as this guy has spent in M+ either. He’s literally running M+ 12 hours a day every day to get this stuff. He’s already done five +22-+23 runs today (I checked his .io page).
I don’t know about that. You’ve also killed 83 raid bosses.
Still sounds like an argument that we could maybe cut one raid level, and do something similar for 5 mans.
I was thinking of communities with a regular raiding group rather than pickup groups. True pickup groups are kind of frustrating, because you start your progression all over again each week. You down a lot of early bosses, and few if any end bosses.
Unfortunately this isn’t really possible as long as mythic lockouts are a thing. Kill 1 boss and you’re saved to that lockout. You can’t join any other raid for the rest of the week. Which basically means as soon as anyone leaves, you pug is finished because nobody who can apply to your group will want to apply, because doing so forfeits their chance at killing any of the earlier bosses that week.
I.E… If you join a raid for say, Mythic Grong (who have already killed champions), you’ll be saved to that lockout as soon as you zone in. Even if the group breaks up before they pull, you’ve locked yourself out of any mythic PUG for that week.
Until this changes true mythic PUGs for anything but the first boss or 2 are very rare.
I don’t know that four difficulty modes is too many, or that there’s anything wrong with a slightly harder, queueable difficulty. What I do wonder about is the scheduling of heroic rewards.
When I first dinged 120 shortly after BfA launched, heroic dungeons offered meaningful upgrades for less than a week even playing pretty casually. I may have run three or four. Now I doubt heroic is meaningful to a new 120 for even a few days.
Is “possibly useful for a day or two on a fresh alt” enough to justify their existence? For my part, I’d like to see their niche expanded a little. Maybe their rewards could scale based on the players’ current ilevel like world quests. That would at least provide an alternative method of advancement for the most casual players, and one that would more naturally flow into harder group content than world quests.
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Not really
When ToC was released, blizzard made it, and the following two raids (ICC and RS) have 4 difficulties.
It went 10 normal > 10 heroic = 25 normal > 25 heroic
Note that while 10 heroic drops the same ilvl loot as 25 man normal, the items themselves are different.
Before that, 10 man was viewed as “normal” mode while 25 man was “heroic”. (This applied to Naxx, OS, EoE and Ulduar) (It no longer applies to Ulduar due to timewalking now)
In Cata, blizzard made it so that 10 normal = 25 normal (likewise with heroic) for both ilvl and loot. Then in patch 4.3, we got LFR.
In patch 5.4, we got flex mode, which ended up as normal mode in 6.0 (WoD prepatch). Old normal became heroic, and old heroic became mythic. Mythic was fixed to 20 people, while normal and heroic were flex (max 30 people). LFR was also flexible, but it still tries to cap at 25 people.
Probably not. Because you didn’t out gear it the second you stepped into it. You needed the gear from it to get through it. That’s the problem with raiding now. You out gear it before you even do it.
That’s terrible raid design. How Blizzard thinks this is a good thing it beyond stupid.
You shouldn’t out gear heroic raids without doing it. I have a toon that 404. I’ve never run 1 raid or mystic. I don’t need 1 drop from a heroic raid. How is this good game design to not need 1 drop from a Raid I’ve never done? And on the second hardest difficulty as well.
Blizzard has ruined raiding. And it’s where to put the most money. Money into something that’s just about worthless in their current design.
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The raid has been out for 3 months. You opted not to do it. You could have gone in there on day 1 like everyone else if you wanted to.
The fact that you outgear the raid 3 months after release is irrelevant.
Remove lfr and the auto que system for dungeons. Make dungeon mechs matter enough to follow them at least somewhat. Rebuild the game community man there is no reason players should be normal raid geared if they aren’t doing equivalent level content
I find it funny how it is only now that people take offence to it this vocally, even though you would be normal geared during wrath from simply doing a daily heroic via the quest (later on the LFG tool) via the badge system. Which was brought into the game in patch 2.4
Well in wrath I was raiding normal icc and before that in bc my guild was half way through black Temple so there’s that. Raiding isn’t the end all beat all anymore unless you’re raiding mythic. Mythic plus adds a great system that allows people who can’t make time windows for raids to gear if they put the work In. It’s all there for the player base there isn’t any need for lfr or auto que dungeons anymore just play the game make friends rebuild a sense of community and progress