The problem isn’t the ability – it’s the community that’s obsessed with “DPS scores” and “ratings/rankings”.
We should be able to have fun, interesting abilities, INCLUDING ones that only benefit one other player in your group. And if you coordinate things to boost your best DPS to even greater heights, that should be acceptable.
If that throws off your ratings/rankings, then there’s a problem with THOSE systems, not the game itself.
Okay then. Any time you’re ready feel free to make your argument. Why does it matter whether PI affects one person or twenty? Before you answer though, I don’t care about WarcraftLogs rankings. At all. I care about the total group DPS of my raid. PI increases it, so does lust.
The community has ALWAYS cared about min/maxing since the very first raid. The most popular classes in Vanilla were the ones that did the most damage.
Asking people to not care about throughput is like telling them to not care about class balance. Just leave Destro as by far the best M+ class because wHo CaReS rIghT
I’ve made my argument; or, moreover, I’ve explained my experience with it. Experience being the key word. I’m not going in circles with people who don’t play the game in a way that PI would be an irritant to them.
This forum is full of people that are dismissive to any game mode that requires any form of trying, effort, or optimization and pretend those concerns don’t matter. I’ve got a couple replies for you but I’m not gonna repeat myself
It was the same with the locked covenant crowd. It’ll change eventually.
Optimizing what? Completing the content or your own personal DPS? Because PI is only a problem for one of those and it’s not the goal that actually gives you in-game rewards.
I could be wrong, but I’m like 95% sure PI didn’t exist when MC was current. I don’t think PI existed until WotLK. So, of course PI wasn’t a problem in MC…
You know that it is primarily people who are on classes that receive PI that dislike it right?
Like, I’m a demo lock. I’m also responsible for assigning my raid’s cooldowns. How are you typing this replies thinking they’re valid counters?
Time to stop lmao
Why does that matter? (Also nice job on not answering my question.)
You know declaring the conversation to be over or the other person’s arguments to be nonsensical doesn’t make you look smart, right? It makes you look pompous.
I think there is a fair argument that the more Blizzard catered to all of the normalization and sterilization of classes for raid balance the less popular it became.
TBC classic Sunwell raid log count dwarfs all combined SotFO logs by almost a factor of 10 and that game isn’t balanced at all, has BL group stacking, leatherworking drums shenanigans, shaman group only buffs to juggle, etc.
Current WoW is nowhere near the same game as TBC, and attempts to push it back in that direction have been horribly received by almost every demographic ESPECIALLY more casual oriented players.
A more specific example here would be GDKP runs. They are the biggest contributor to TBC raid reclears.
Could you imagine all these personal loot andy’s in a GDKP run when they get an item they wanna keep?
You keep using the word argument.
I am not arguing with you about my experience with PI and how it impacts raiders.
You are here stomping your feet acting as if that impact isn’t real, and you’re doing it from a distance as someone who doesn’t play the game in a mode where PI is important/played around.
You’ve convinced yourself that people only don’t like it because if they don’t get it they lose “personal dps.” That shows your inexperience with it.
That is not an argument. That’s a difference in experiences. You are not positively or negatively impacted by it one way or another, but you love to see yourself type on the forums.
No that’s not what I think. What I think is that people’s issue with PI stems from how it affects people’s rankings on the DPS meter, either on an individual basis or on a spec by spec basis. I don’t think that all those people dislike it because it makes them personally perform worse in the rankings, nor have I ever forwarded that point. But as far as I know, everyone’s issues with PI are entirely on how it affects logs and parsing regardless of how much they personally benefit (or not) from PI.
If you’re going to state so confidently that you can read my mind it would help to actually know what my stance is.
That is a fraction of it.
And even still, you are dismissive of those complaints as though people playing a video game should not enjoy competing on meters. Farm is a massive part of WoW raiding - once the progression is done, there isn’t much left to do other than min/max, get BIS, and try and blast.
There is nothing wrong with people who do have concerns about DPS and how PI impacts rankings. If you are not a competitive person by nature that’s fine. You don’t have to care about rankings.
But pretending people are wrong for doing so is ignorant.
As I’ve already shared above though, there is much more negatives that PI brings to a raid group that you simply refuse to consider despite the points being presented to you
Anyway, like I said. I’m not going in circles with you. This is your end game. I’m just here for a quick visit. Good luck with whatever the next great debate topic is that doesn’t impact your ability to turn over rocks for WQs.
Again, not what I think because I too enjoy competing on meters. I just don’t think we should design the game around them or sacrifice the actual game (a team working together to beat the content) for the sake of the unofficial damage competition.
So long as the two don’t come into conflict, I’m perfectly happy to let people who enjoy competing on logs do whatever they want. The moment they do come into conflict, I say that team play trumps individual competition every time. I do not see why the damage competition subset needs to force game changes for their sake alone onto the rest of the community. Especially since you have a ready-made solution already available to you. Simply ask your Priests to only PI themselves when you have content on farm. If you can’t get your own raid group to side with you how do you expect to get the community writ large to do so?
this is one of those things that you type out on a forum like the GD thinking it sounds like a great point but anybody that actually raids looks at like “tf is he talking about”
You’re absolutely right about that. My point still stands that we were idiots when PI existed, though, I just forgot which expansion it was in so I just rattled off a bunch of vanilla examples. But yeah if we’re talking WotLK, we still didn’t even have ilvls then. Just gearscore, may that system forever rot in hell. PI was still basically thrown out all willy nilly by all but the top end players. Quite different from today where it feels like a much larger portion of the community tries to hyper optimize, thanks to much more easily accessible parsing tools.
I too like Pi! About, maybe 3.14 times more than I like Cake
I’ve said this in the priest thing, for it, but I will say it here, too. PI should either go, be reworked, be self cast, etc. but something should change with it. This is why:
Because specs feel much better being played with the 25% haste buff than without it. It affects GCDs, it affects abilities, spells, DoTs, etc. It’s the same reason people love having Lust/Hero/Warp up, it makes your class/specs play better. Yes, damage too but the specs feel much more fluent and better, especially DoT specs since it makes your DoTs tick faster and let you get more DoTs up on more targets faster, too.
Honestly, if they gave more specs faster paces, it would be fine, or if they made it self buff, if they made it not be Haste, etc. it would all be fine.
It’s not fine because Haste affects so much for every spec it’s pretty ridiculous. You also get resources faster, too. Like, this one spell does SO much for your specs and classes that without it it doesn’t feel so good. Of course people will be mad when they don’t get it. It’s like having part of your toolkit sealed off unless you do get it.
For those who still go into Torghast (I know, extremely extremely few of us that still do it) if you end up with around 100% Haste baseline, how good does playing your spec feel during that Torghast run? Then when you exit the run and you go back to being 20-30% baseline if you’re stacking Haste? Yeah, it’s not so good of a feeling.
Stats are stats, they affect all specs and all classes in one way or another, and having it be a flat 25% Haste, which is the one stat that affects 98-100% of specs in a positive manner, is a bad feeling that when you don’t get it it doesn’t feel good.
I play Affliction. When I do Torghast and select my Haste and/or Mastery, the amount of awesome I feel having over 100%, over 200% Haste from all the Haste stacking buffs, it feels so good playing the spec because it’s like you don’t have any GCDs to go through. The DoTs tick every .3 seconds so basically 3-4 ticks per DoT per second, which feels awesomely. Having so much Mastery makes them tick like mac trucks which makes them feel 10 times more awesome. A lot of my Torghast runs I don’t even do anything but stats, where I will end up having like 30-40% crit chance, 130% Haste under Dark Soul:Misery plus 225% Mastery or something close.
So something like when you cast it on someone else you also get the full haste buff?
Wish granted. Check the Dragonflight talent trees.
No, I meant it should change from Haste to a damage buff or something, instead. Haste full on effects all classes. In 5 player content, you’re PIing 2 people, yourself and the person. The other 3 do not get it. In a raid, unless you have multiple Priests, which could and sometimes does happen, then even more people don’t get it.
Again, Haste affects a lot of classes/specs positively and makes them feeling better playing with it vs not. When not getting it, I don’t blame them for being mad since again it makes them feel better playing it. Damage included but more that it’s Haste. If it was Crit or something it wouldn’t be as big of an issue since that makes very few classes/specs feel better being played.