Is feral really as bad as people say?

Orb of the Sin’dorei is my go-to toy.

Running around looking like a Blood Elf rogue… but secretly a kitty!
Much deception! (just wish it lasted longer than 5 mins)

And I would be out dps’ing you the whole time in any mythic+ and most raid bosses :slight_smile: Wanna know why I can say that with confidence? I’ve been there done that, and you are just “thinking” about it :slight_smile:

LOL and I say that tongue in cheek.

Oh well, to each his own. I guess that is part of my frustration and it is understandable. There are many chiming in that have nothing but theory crafting to resort to for their opinion in this discussion. I can’t fight that. All I can say is check back in later when you have the setup and let us know what you find.

I close with this note as well. Not to Wildheart, but in general. Our setups are actually infinitely more customizable than most realize. It isn’t as extensive as reforging in MOP, but I have found so many combinations that end up doing roughly the same dmg. Saying one is better than another is really tough because the margins are so small in most cases as to make them inconsequential. Even then, choosing a combo that theoretically does 2% better than what makes the class feel fun and free, and that same 2% will never be realized by the average player is silly. You can’t simply copy what other people do and expect that because a sim says so, you will do better than the next guy running what you consider in your “google” based experience to be inferior…

Big tip, collect that titan residuum!

Pug mythic raids once a week, run lfr, normal, and heroic if you have to, roll on each mythic boss (365 titan each piece you get), DE every piece of azurite gear you come across above 355. It will help with getting 415 gear with the right traits. Also, run 10’s religiously every week for the titan in the chest even if you have to pay for a carry. You’ll have the gear in short order and can try it for yourself.

Dam you try to stay nice to people on this forum but you still get this, lol. I don’t raid, never have never will. I just don’t find that content enjoyable. And I think I;ve done pretty well in the 6 weeks this chars existed with no other toons

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Wildheart, even if you don’t really raid you might want to consider pugging the first boss for the helm (its WF/JF) not sure what your using as for some reason i cant armory you.

Also, as much as Ssathyrr did sound kind of prickish in his last post, its absoultly the truth, many builds that are within a couple % of each other in the sims will do very similar dps when used by actual humans, and playing a build you like over a build you don’t even if its a “theoretical” dps loss will net you the best in-game dps for your character.
:cat: MoC scrub for life :cat:

Yeah I’m not sure why people still can’t see it. I moved to Trollbane not too long ago but still get 404s, Weird how IO updated it within 3 hours but WoW is lagging lol

And my last 2 posts on this topic were about just tht, who cares all that much about a possible % loss or gain and just have fun t.t. Imma just leave this topic alone lol

Edit: I always found haste moc builds to be the funnest version of the spec and some of the new essences really make the spec more fun so I hope u enjoy them

So… yeah… it does come across a bit elitist.
But I dont think he meant to be insulting at all. Thats how I was. Thats how I think. Im not trying to be rude to people or say that Im better than anyone. I just know what works (because I tested it in game myself) and Im confident in my own abilitys as a feral. As is Ssathyrr.

Thats why I get a little annoyed with people who use absolutes when giving advice when all they are really doing regurgitating what they hear/read from someone else.

Ssathyrr shared real insight from his own testing, and despite all the talk from Drezwazluz, its just that. Talk. Hes a coward with no real experience to take from who is too afraid to post on his druid.

One of the worst spec’s I’ve played in wow.

But how’s guardian now? Personally I frickin love bear tanks and it sucks they got beat up with pruning.

Feral is as good as the player behind the keyboard…true for all specs, really. It’s a bit more challenging to master, but it’s so rewarding when you get there! Don’t listen to people who say it’s crap dps for the effort. Once you get really good, the only ones who will beat you are those who are comparably good at their own spec. I routinely beat outlaw and DH on reaping packs and overall when I run keys. A good feral will always beat a lousy player hiding behind a FOTM :smiley: Aside from that, it’s really fun if you like the playstyle.

I use Sabertooth and Blood Talons in M+ regardless of the affixes. Crit/mastery are my best secondary stats. I can see the merit behind using the Predator/MoC build with a focus on crit/haste. Personally, I feel that build lost a bit of its bite with the 8.1 changes and don’t think it will scale as well over the long term of the expansion, especially since we lost our haste buff, but to each their own. As long as you’re having fun with your feral and maximizing your potential, go for it!

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I spent more time than is health on a target dummy to look at what an ideal single-target setup is like…

I had the gear in bank to set up a couple moderately different secondary setups at the same ilvl:

  1. Crit: 1250 – Haste: 800 – Mastery: 980 – Versatility: 350 – Crit enchants
  2. Crit: 1250 – Haste: 1150 – Mastery: 540 – Versatility: 450 – Haste enchants
    3x wild fleshrending and 3x jungle fury
    No raid buffs, no hero, no pots, no flask, no food

I tried every combo that included:
Predator, Sabertooth
Soul, Roar, Incarnation
Slash
MoC, Bloodtalons

I also tried combos:
Lunar Inspiration - Soul / Roar - slash - Moc / BT
Feral frenzy - Predator / Sabertooth - Soul - slash

I actually sat there and played out a 3 minute run from Berserk to berserk (didn’t use the 2nd one). I tried to play each talent choice optimally, changing the opener and casts depending on the runs. 4-5 attempts per choice on each gear set.

With both I found:
Top choice: (Sabretooth + Soul + slash + Bloodtalons) and (sabertooth + soul + slash + MoC) were very close, BT was slightly ahead of MoC, but both were within like 0.5k, so could just be error.
Another thing I noticed is that (sabertooth + soul + slash + feral frenzy) was only about 0.5k behind those two. It’s pretty close.

The two kinda-different stat sets made no real difference. it was about the same DPS regardless.

Predator is a DPS loss over top choice by about 2-3k consistently (~20-21k vs 18-19k). This was the same in both gear sets.

Lunar Inspiration does not do well, about a 3-4k loss. It’s also hard to manage another dot, particularly with the need to also keep thrash up for fleshrending. It took me a few attempts to re-adjust. This was actually the most annoying build to play.

Moment of Clarity and Blood talons is almost equal. Sabertooth + Soul + Brutal Slash + (BT / MoC) was within like 0.5k average. Again, this was the same in both gear sets.

Savage roar was about a 1k loss in general. It was also more annoying to play. Again, same in both gear sets. I liked roar better when the bleeds were high damage. Even though the start of legion was tedious, at least the bleeds were huge damage, along with ashmanes, was a little room for some skill play for energy use, or when roar snaphotted.

Incarnation was about a 1-2k loss, better burst (for feral) at start, like 35k+ and annoying to play, more annoying than savage roar, felt like being back in the start of legion with energy regeneration. Rake does huge damage at the start

Ferocious bite was almost always top damage, but not always. Incarnation, shred was top. With predator and MoC, they’d swap places sometimes, but were generally pretty close for me. MoC made shred a higher % in all builds, but bit was still a decent % more.

As a point of note: Wild fleshrending isn’t affected by armor. That makes a difference on bosses, particularly raid bosses. I’m sure fleshrending had a big influence on these results, especially with this armor point. In praticular, (obviously) it buffs shred damage. noticing that MoC, predator, incarnation, all tend to lean heavier on shred, without fleshrending, I assume these would do worse.

I was honestly surprised how close all the talent choices were in actual output.

I appreciate the effort you put in, but I have to admit that your results arent very surprising. You have proven what talents have the highest single target dps, and at no point was that ever really up for debate.

For raids, arguing what talents are better for AOE or ST is irrelevant since you can change talents on the fly and cater to each fight, but for m+, you’re locked into whatever gear and talents you have once that key is activated.

With the current meta for m+, even if it’s tyrannical, aoE dps matters more than single target DPS.

It did one thing for me, which was demonstrate that the ‘sims’ thing is actually pretty accurate for patchwerk fights. The simulation numbers and what I was able to get out of each talent set is almost right on the nose.

I’m done typing for now, but in short… for mythic+ IMO, Predator is close to 100% of the time almost always better for me, regardless of affixes, tested and confirmed. MoC and Bloodtalons is still a tossup. Definitely soul, not roar or incarnation. Slash vs wrath was a dps tossup, depends on affixes and dungeons, slash ‘calculated’ better for me, until I got the 3x fleshrending, now have settled on primal wrath specifically so that swipe still exists without charges.

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My first time every using a “sim”, I have no idea what to do so I used a “quick sim” and it says 19,568 DPS

No way have I EVER hit 19,500 DPS for more than a few seconds Whatever, I love Petro and feral. Fun will always be > DPS

Also, hello fellow druids. Keep up the good conversations
:bear: + :tiger: = :heart:

No crap, really. Who’d have thought the sims are accurate.

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Because they haven’t been in the past. Fortunately, there’s people around to test and figure out stuff so the other people can follow.

Yeah, back when askmrrobot was a thing, sure.

Garbage BZ incompetence leads to such a bad Feral performance

So let’s get this straight, it’s acceptable when you give your opinions because you’re super experienced and you have logs of one top feral that fits your narrative.

When others give their different opinion, they are just noobs regurgitating what other people say.

There’s no way that their information comes from their own vast experience, other expert feral’s opinions, or you know…mathematics?

Got it.

Hm.

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U mad bro?

Nope not really. Just enjoying pointing out your hypocrisy. Not seeing this vast experience you’re talking about - seems like you are basing your opinions on other people’s experiences as much as anyone.

Nice reply though. Have a wonderful day!

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