Is feral really as bad as people say?

Okay. You are starting up with the aggressive pushing tactics that you have started to engage in recently. That’s fine. I’ll bow out of the apparent argument you wish to have, which is off-topic of the original post anyway. I’ll just note that not everything is a do or die debate. It is possible to have a chill conversation.

It is though, in fights like sand queen or gorak tul, where adds are killed frequently, predator allows for infinite energy and 100% uptime on a 15% damage/crit buff that buffs ALL of your ST damage. Not just 20% bites.

That’s just to name a few.

If you want to provide numerical data to back your statements, I’ll wait.

I can never recommend anyone taking Pred or Saber even with situations like that present in certain dungeons. The damage increase in these fights, both in regards to time and % of total damage dealt when looking at the dungeon as a whole is a HUGE dps decrease, usually amounting to something like 11% in most cases. At least thats what I have found in my testing

It is a noticeable loss in single target, but the increase in non-boss damage in mythic+ is not marginal. This has been my anecdote. Though it doesn’t actually answer the question directly, there is also data for mythic+ runs on warcraft logs, to show high-key feral player taking predator pretty often, so the choice of sabertooth is not a settled question.

My anecdote was running the same dungeon several times on the same +key level in a week and comparing several attempts with different talents. It was a non-bolstering week, so dps could genreal go unabated, predator + primal wrath + bloodtalons was the best talents for me by quite a bit. Boss damage lower, on the order of 3-4 k (so like ~15% lower than sabertooth) but the extra damage on the rest of the dungeon was very worth it.
I had 3x flesh rending, 3x the +crit on tiger fury one, which is probably a factor that changes my anecdote for other people’s setup.

I believe the high key feral may leave it up to whether or not fixes like teeming are present as opposed to others like bolstering? That would be my guess. I’ve done exactly what you described in regards to running same level keys and seeing differences in damage and found myself at a net loss.

I didn’t get lucky with 3wf/3tf traits so maybe that was a factor? Also Tyrannical may play a part where boss damage accounts for larger portions of total damage possible in some dungeons.

Basically, just go here, then look at some dungeons. You can only see talents on the runs marked ‘logs’ source rather than ‘leaderboard’ source.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/20#class=Druid&spec=Feral

It’s pretty limited because only a small % of the runs were logged. It looks like even tyrannical weeks, there’s a mix. I did notice that the people who log, those people tend to make the same choice week to week.

I’m usually on page … 5-8 >.>. Not good enough for page 1, heh.

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…better than my page 15. W.e this char is 2 months old I’m sure it’ll get better.

I never really took the time to really look at the talents others were taking against present affixes, never knew you could see them so neatly on wlogs. Thanks!

Yeah I’m noticing the same about the choices in reards to week. Maybe it’s just playstyle preferances? Tangul goes Pred moc and has a bit more haste than others. I know when I first hit 120, that was the build I went to overcome some of the more boring aspects of feral gameplay.

Sanitarius, I respective a lot of what you are saying and agree with most. But you commenting on my statement about predator is wrong. It might not be wrong for you, but I don’t know what rotation you’re using or what macro you are using to get your results. All I can say is that for me, I can see equal if not better damage with predator single target then with sabertooth. Maybe it’s the difference between what buttons we push and when. Too many people discount predator because they think it is an AOE talent only. Ever stop to think about how It plays with the Tigers fury trait and how it affects the number of shreds you can effectively pull off?

I can do some work and report back in detail but saying it is a flat out dps in all situations and builds is simply not accurate. You are also using BT btw, I am not.

Sath, how in the living **** are you managing this, I’m super confused

Didnt get a chance to look at the logs untill after work, but now that iv seen them, i have a few questions.

Is Tangul considered a “top Feral”? The logs have him listed as #1 for all dungeons, but …he is using predator. So does this automatically disqualify him? Nuisense clearly stated that all top ferals use SbT. So if you all could clarify that for me, that would be great.

Second… Since he is using predator, I wondering how much damage did he lose by not using SbT? Nuisense stated that using Pred is a “MASSIVE” damage loss. One can only imagine the possibilities if Tangul wasnt such a noob.

And lastly… At what level does min/maxing begin to matter? Nuisense states that running a 10 doesnt matter. That’s a bit harsh I think. I used to be in “the 1%” back in cata, but apparently non of that matters now. Im a filthy casual. Fair enough. But what about Tangul? Does he not matter?!! DOES HE NOT FEEL?!

Alright who crapped in the litter box?

:joy_cat:

Killing adds.

No adds. Let’s talk ST test dummy. I just got home and put it to the test “again”. First, I made a macro so all things were equal, same number of shreds, FBs, etc.

I ran predator for 3:30, waited 3 minutes with a logout, then came back and ran 3:30 with Sabertooth. Boralus Sausage and Current Flask, no hero or pots. Final dps lower than running dps as it always falls off when you stop on dummy.

Predator: 4.51m dmg, 20.7k
Sabertooth: 4.43m dmg 20.4k

I know the difference is within the realm of varying crit chance. The main difference I see is 42% uptime in auras for Tiger’s Fury with SBT versus 58% uptime with Predator.

This is on the back of the main Raider’s Training Dummy under the great seal.

Predator = 1.81m from Shred, 792k from FB
SBT = 173m from Shred, 916k from FB

This only gets better when you throw an add into the equation.

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Mhmmm… This is super weird to look at, maybe I should give it a try. Maybe 3TF traits come into huge play here? But I’m surprised it’s even close ST let alone a bit better.

Shouldn’t this be closer to 46-48% if using TF semi close to CD? Also I’ve never closely looked at Pred TF uptime but 58% is far better than I thought it would be, that 5 secs does alot.

5 seconds pushes it from 12 sec to 17 sec, giving it more than 50% uptime yes, and yes, the main reason they are so close for him is 3x WF, 3X JF and MoC

I don’t much care for the discussion at hand, but your basis for what you’re saying is…hitting a target dummy. Seriously?

drez? Seriously, take your cancer somewhere else… Want me to report on the untold number of variables in a dungeon and report back. Are you crazy?

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When it comes to buff uptimes? Absolutely.

It’s a controlled environment designed for tests such at these.

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I’ve concluded Sath should mail me his gear

ty