Um you should NEVER do this. Sabertooth is basically mandatory in every type of content currently. Even if you think Predator gives you a marginal AoE boost, you are sacrificing A TON of single target damage.
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beats me. i got bit for almost 18 k non crit wearing plate. which is really bizarre
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Have you been hit by a chaos bolt yet? Youâre gonna love it.
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Never is an awful strong opinion. In Mythic+ you need to determine which build you want to use and that is dependent on your comp, weekly affixes, etc. In raids, you switch back and forth between trash and bosses.
Predator gives us sustained AOE above and beyond a lot of the burst AOE specs if the trash lives long enough and/or the number of adds is high and staggered enough like with reaping. Where other specs fall off, we just keep on going if not climb.
So, how long are boss fights in your mythic + that a TON counts for anything over the higher percentage of AOE content in each? I for one know the exact impact to my dps and I weigh the benefit before deciding which way to go.
That said, there is no ONE go to for all scenarios just like there is no ONE trait/talent combo. If you play with things long enough you will find multiple ways to skin the cat so to speak.
Copy pasta something from another thread here:
Top Ferals are using SbT, dealerâs choice, Balance Affinity, dealerâs choice, SotF, PW, BT on pulls more than 3. So, in M+ this is the default build. Azerite traits: 3 x JF, 2 x WFR, 1 x GL as your best all round setup. The rest of the traits is pretty much dealerâs choice on what you have to pick from.
For raids, the Azerite traits stay the same and the talents all stay the same, except you swap PW for BrS.
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In general (as maybe in a niche case youâd find a use for it), Iâd agree with never taking Predator. You lose too much damage not taking SbT. Yes it is that massive. The only talent that really changes is BrS to PW when running M+. Now, if you choose to run a different setup and are happy with it, then thatâs okay. Itâs your toon, itâs your choice.
Saying never use predator based on boss pull data is providing an incomplete picture. You canât talk as if there is no such thing as a tome to swap talents in between bosses. In mythic plus it is your call and it is entirely based on affixes and level of the key thus the kill time of adds. It also depends where you want to shine. If you want to top the meters and overall dmg in a mythic, you arenât going to do that one boss at a time (ST). One size does not fit all.
For example, I do not use BT. BrS is also more situational for me. I tend to get better dps with the extra shred and WFx3 than adding BrS to my single target so PW stays most of the time, although dependent on a few circumstances.
It is my opinion that static thought and copy cat tactics is why so many ferals are having a hard time. They are stuck copying a snapshot of raid boss talents and not changing things up to match the circumstances. They are also copying a build that forces them into a rotation they canât perform effectively⌠Sometimes you have to find what works best for you. If you can only achieve 90% of the harder rotation but 95% of the easier one and there is only a 1% difference between the best and yours, which one are you better off with?
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I saw a big ST drop last night in my +7 (peanuts key I know) taking predator over SbT.
Yeah I donât see any point in taking predator over saber tooth. Youâll do barely Better cleave with a significant loss to ST. You just switch BrS for PW for the best overall throughput in dungeons.
And some of you might not.
Predator is by no means a significant loss to ST if you are setup correctly.
I think the missing component here is how traits have the potential to change talent choices and talent choices impact which traits are optimal per. There is no one way⌠We actually have more choices than people realize. What it takes to figure this out is having the gear available and lots of time on the test dummy.
Simming is also key and once you figure out the right combos, your sims will reveal how close each optimal combo really is.
Again, there is no, one way to play feral. We actually have choices this time around although they are not as straight forward or as easy to obtain as I would like.
Copycats canât grasp this as they follow the pack. The really good Ferals have it figured out and that is when it gets fun. I am using predator and primal wrath now and just plain eating it up. What is RIGHT, is what you can support by matching your playstyle, skill level, with the right talents and the correct supporting traits.
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100% this^^^^
Iâm using Pred with Jungle jury and WFR traits in my 10s. Yes my ST damage takes a hit. But how many ST fights are there in a dungeonâŚ2? Most boss encounters have adds. Iâm doing an average of 25k overall dps with peaks of 70-80k during reaping.
With bursting week upon us Iâll admit this might not necessarily work. There are often times exceptions to be made when it comes to specific dungeons and affixes. But thatâs just itâŚThere is no one cookie cutter build for ferals.
Stating that Sabertooth is king is just ignorant.
unless youâre playing this game in the top 1%, play what ya wanna play. I went guardian despite the forums and I am loving it. Once you get familiar with it you know when to pop outta form to help heal. Feral has massive AoE (but very trait dependent). Stack wild freshrending traits and you should be fine. Just play what ya wanna play. Most of the people saying avoid this class and the other are just FOTM players. Good luck with whatever class you choose.
Iâll repeat one of my commonly used mantras.
How you feel about this expac is almost entirely dependent on the level at which you consume the content.
This goes for M+ as well. Some run Predator and MoC and swear by it. Others donât. I even heard of someone who insists SR is still great and you have to use 5CPs still. It is all relative to the level at which you consume the content. Part of that consumption is how far down the rabbit hole of min/maxing and research into how your chosen class/spec operates and performs you wish to go. And how your class/spec changes in the expansion itself in relation to game updates, spec buffs/nerfs, and general power gains as the expansion matures.
Thatâs not what you said last month.
What I said last month stands. One statement does not exclude the other. If you do not consume content at a level where min/maxing matters, then who cares? A 10? It doesnât matter. Do whatever.
I went to a WF/MoC build fairly early in uldir simply because i did, do and probably always will hate blood talons. Is it perfectly optimal? no it isnât, but its a lot more fun for me and that means Iâm much less likely to screw up the rotation.
Iâve been a MS feral for over 12 years now, i understand how our abilityâs interact, the guides say stack mastery because it interacts well with BT (the âoptimalâ choice) which also factors in how much the 20% FB damage is worth off of sabertooth, they all synergistic and make FB hit like a truck and your #1 source of damage.
Running with MoC means your going to get less damage off of your bleeds and bites and its basically a buff to our weakest ability shred(and swipe) . Now factor in 2-3 Wild fleshrending talents and suddenly shred, our weak little filler ability is now doing respectable damage. This means that Mastery now has less value, because Iâm now getting more damage from shred than FB, so Iâm stacking crit/haste instead, because haste synergises well with MoC.
Now lets take this alternate build with has already shifted a lot of damage away from FB and in to shred. Predator is always going to be a ST dps loss over Sabertooth, but the impact will be less because the loss of FB damage is slightly offset from the extra 5 seconds of +15% damage and because im getting that on more shreds. Now lets factor in 2-3 Jungle fury and benefit of that extra 5 seconds of TF becomes worth even more, as i now have a ton of crit along with that +15% damage. Iâve done my homework, i sim out at around 22.2k with predator and 23.8k with sabertooth. Thatâs a 1.6k dps loss assuming the fight doesnât have any adds i can use to refresh my TF. And for all of you BT loyalists out there yes, my ST would be better if i used BT(about 24.5k assuming perfect BT play) but i will gladly take that theoretical 700 dps loss to enjoy my character. Iâll gladly take that 1.6k ST loss for better aoe and throughput throughout the rest of the dungeon.
So the people who do consume content at a level where min/maxing matters. They do not have access to tombs to swap talents mid raid? They canât change their talents each week to cater to the different affix and dungeon they are in? Isnât that very definition of min/maxing?
According to your previous replyâŚthereâs only one way to play feral at âmax lvlâ and thatâs simply not true.
Iâd agree with never taking Predator. You lose too much damage not taking SbT. Yes it is that massive
Absolutely zero truth to this.
Certainly youâd change talents mid raid if you are min/maxing. Who said you wouldnât?
And the current discussion if you ask a high level pusher how to talent goes something like âConsider all the choices and options you have. Then pick SbT and PW over anything else anyway because itâs better.â
is the full quote of what I said. Where was what I said incorrect?
And yes, there is truth to what I said. In context.
Mediocre at pve and trash at pvp right. Most feral pvp streamer/players have left the spec because ferals survival and damage output is really bad right now. You are forced to go bear form most of the time which makes you useless.
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I already quoted you, but Iâll highlight it again since you missed it.
There is zero truth to this. Its a blind statement with no numerical data to back it. Just hearsay.
Stop regurgitating tired cookie cutter builds from âtop feralsâ as gospel. What works for them might not necessarily work for others. This whole min/max argument is circumstantial and unique to each individual player and their level of progression, who they play with, what gear/traits they have and most importantly, how they want to play.
More than half of these âtop feralsâ are simply doing the same thing. Blindly taking what some other player suggested as the end all be all of truths! If you actually stop to ask why⌠thatâs all they reply with. âItâs the bestâ⌠yeah. Why? Did you test it? Did you run multiple runs with different specs and gear and compare your result? Iâm willing to bet no.
I have.
I might not be pushing high keys. But with my current gear set up/build/and content, predator is hands down, night and day, miles ahead of Sabertooth.
I have already gone into more detail on this subject in another thread about how ST builds fall short on more than half of the current dungeons because of multiple adds/targets accounting for more than of the boss fights. 100% uptime on tigers fury and jungly fury is achievable. Thatâs 15% damage and massive crit buff on all attacks for the entire fight vs the 20% bites.
Youâve undervalued Predator with absolutely no understanding as to why.
Just a parrot repeating others. Stop it.
Yes it is. Itâs a significant hit to single target. In Mythic+, that hit is totally worth it, predator is a good talent, but boss damage will be lower. For a completely single-target raid fight, itâs a noticeable loss.
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