Is "Elitism" getting out of hand in WoW?

[Nightmove-ghostlands (Nightmove)]

The numbers and parses would say diff

Did you feel the wind rushing over you head? That would’ve been the point of my previous statement passing over your.

[Ravens-sargeras (Ravens)]

I honestly think elitism isn’t as bad as it was in Vanilla but for some, it has gotten worse.

actually it’s not worse, compared to when systems like DKP and gearscore ran rampant and when raiding and high end content was less casual friendly… and you literally had people who intentionally stood around in the major cities and major hubs decked out in full tier gear on their epic mounts, showing off and making fun of everyone around them for being worthless, casual, and not a good player because they haven’t clear the current raid, afford an epic mount, or whatever. Elitism these days is far less in comparison imo.

[Fookí-sargeras (Fookí)]

ah ok. just wondering because “and attract like minded no life tryhards,” sounds pretty negative.

[Muddypuddy-malganis]

I agree, unfortunately it seems others don’t think so.

[Wryn-rivendare (Wryn)]

Clear heroic

Dude, I hung up my raiding spurs this tier because I work like 60 hours a week. Raiding takes a weekly commitment, and that’s just not something I can give my team at the moment.

Now I just do moderate mythic+ when I have time to bang out a dungeon or two. You haven’t even made 1k yet, so don’t come at me with your “clear heroic” nonsense.

[Wrynli-rivendare (Wrynli)]

Clear heroic

And just in case you’re confused by Raider io, I’ve played more monk than druid in season two.

Point being, don’t think you get to put other people on this thread down just because you’re AOTC. You have ONE H Jaina kill and like 500 IO. That hardly qualifies as anything to brag about.

[Sachi-tichondrius]

Those are the elitists of the casual community, you better take him for his word. Tbh I love the ones that think being 3/9mythic in bod is being a mythic raider. They always have a few gimmies not much more difficult than heroic at the start of mythic so you can gear for the later bosses.

[Nuros-wyrmrest-accord]

Elitism isn’t more or less prominent than before. In the past you had people make you come to town for an inspection, then came the armory check, then gearscore, achievement linking, and rio. The best thing about this game is that you can always create your own groups and do whatever you want if you’re not happy with how another party/raid/guild operates.

It’s even easier to find like-minded players with LFG if anything since you can target ‘completion’ keys that don’t care about timers and ‘chill’ raid groups of alts or guilds who don’t care about ilvl and just want to do some normal or heroic bosses.

[Ehiztari-earthen-ring (Ehiztari)]

With both this and your “punch my neighbor in the face” example, you’re talking about things people are actively doing to someone else. It doesn’t cost me anything to not punch my neighbor in the face, it doesn’t cost me anything to not be racist. On the other hand, committing my free time to running teaching/carry groups costs, well, my time. Time, effort, frustration depending on how tired I am. There’s a difference between “don’t do things that hurt others” and “actively spend your time helping others.”

The first point was because you justified your decision on the basis of freedom of choice and I was pointing out that simply because one has choices in life doesn’t make all of those choices good ones, moral ones, right ones. There are bad ones, immoral ones, and wrong ones. I used that example because it’s stark, not because I though it was what you actually did.

But understand, excluding people from participation is hurting others. Given that just about the only thing we can do in the game with same-faction players is include or exclude them, it’s the ONLY way of hurting others open to us that doesn’t involve some sort of cyberstalking that would probably end up on CNN at the end of the day.

My second analogy was far more on point. When you exclude someone based on a single axis of knowledge about them, making broad assumptions about them on the basis of that single axis of knowledge, that is exactly what is happening when a store owner refuses to allow African-American kids in because he believes them all to be thieves.

Whether it’s a store owner making that assumption or you assuming that any toon not overgeared must be run by a player who doesn’t know the mechanics and is just looking for a carry, it’s still bigotry. It doesn’t much matter if it’s based on racist assumptions or elitist assumptions, it’s still ugly behavior.

[Voxplaga-ravencrest (Voxplaga)]

But understand, excluding people from participation is hurting others.

See this might be an argument if you were talking about a guild. As pugs we can take whoever we chose. If we don’t want to teach, and just want to have a smooth, uneventful run, we can. If we choose to teach a pug how to do something, we can as well. There is nothing wrong with either of those choices. Now i would say the same goes for guildees to a point, but i do think guildees should want to be more helpful to their fellow guildees.

That being said, wanting to not teach, and just have a smooth run doesn’t make someone elitist.

or you assuming that any toon not overgeared must be run by a player who doesn’t know the mechanics and is just looking for a carry, it’s still bigotry.

Also calling someone a bigot because they won’t take a pug in a run is pretty ignorant, and stupid to say the least.

[Akston-bloodhoof (Akston)]

But understand, excluding people from participation is hurting others.

Telling people they are obligated to not only invite people, but work harder to compensate for the people they are obligated to invite is silly.

My second analogy was far more on point. When you exclude someone based on a single axis of knowledge about them, making broad assumptions about them on the basis of that single axis of knowledge, that is exactly what is happening when a store owner refuses to allow African-American kids in because he believes them all to be thieves.

Whether it’s a store owner making that assumption or you assuming that any toon not overgeared must be run by a player who doesn’t know the mechanics and is just looking for a carry, it’s still bigotry. It doesn’t much matter if it’s based on racist assumptions or elitist assumptions, it’s still ugly behavior

…wow

There is no way you just compared not inviting someone to your group with racism. And acted like they were the same. Or similar.

You should feel bad. This is bad.

[Aivy-stonemaul]

I’ve heard enough about it that I just avoid mythics all together. I may run the baby ones just for the transmogs, but that’s it. I used to love raiding and doing heroics, but something changed since I left around Cata, I don’t want to deal with those people.

[Nagasis-sargeras (Nagasis)]

ok? your point?

[Nagasis-sargeras (Nagasis)]

sounds like an excuses to me. clear heroic then come talk to me.

[Nagasis-sargeras (Nagasis)]

your point?

[Saángreal-moon-guard (Saángreal)]

Plenty of those too. I’m just here to enjoy the game not min max it.

[Ehiztari-earthen-ring (Ehiztari)]

See this might be an argument if you were talking about a guild.

So, your argument here is that people aren’t people unless they’re in your guild?

Wow.

As pugs we can take whoever we chose. If we don’t want to teach, and just want to have a smooth, uneventful run, we can. If we choose to teach a pug how to do something, we can as well. There is nothing wrong with either of those choices.

We’re circling around to the “It’s our choice” as a defense.

Yes, certainly you can choose to judge people based on a single axis of knowledge about them if you want.

That doesn’t make the choices you make moral, civil, or proper.

Now i would say the same goes for guildies to a point, but i do think guildies should want to be more helpful to their fellow guildies.

I have only two rules in my guild:

• Sign in on one guilded toon at least once every two months
• DBAA (see Season 2 / Episode 5 of Breaking Bad (“Breakage”)
  I completely agree that guildies get priority in everything and if a guildie wants to come on a run and it’s possible, it should be done (all things being equal - but if the guildies is a known slacker, maybe not - but then you KNOW that about that guildie - it’s not an unfounded assumption based on a single axis of knowledge)

That being said, wanting to not teach, and just have a smooth run doesn’t make someone elitist.

No, but the assumption that someone who isn’t overgeared isn’t because they don’t know the fights is not a way to weed out those who need to be taught. It’s a way to weeding out anyone who doesn’t have the gear to make your run simpler.

Also calling someone a bigot because they won’t take a pug in a run is pretty ignorant, and stupid to say the least.

I didn’t call anyone a bigot. I illustrated bigotry using two different behaviors and described the behaviors. That’s not stupid or ignorant.

Making broad assumptions about ANYONE based on a single fact is a terrible way to judge them for inclusion.

[Ehiztari-earthen-ring (Ehiztari)]

There is no way you just compared not inviting someone to your group with racism. And acted like they were the same. Or similar.

You should feel bad. This is bad.

Bigotry is not limited to racial bigotry and I never said it was.

I used a parallel in the real world to illustrate to a particularly dense poster that making broad assumptions about ANYONE based on a single facet of that person whether it is race, religion, economic status, or . . . iLevel - is bigotry.

There is value in virtually every player if they’re not just camping at the graveyard in battlegrounds and if someone wants into a PUG and it’s abysmally below standards (not the elitist nonsense standards that have evolved - I mean the Blizzard guidelines), refusing to even consider them for entry based solely on their iLvl assuming that they don’t know the fights or are just looking for a carry is offensive.

[Iammyscars-kelthuzad]

I’m sorry but 12s and 13s are not close to being “high keys.” This is a problem.

The issue hasn’t gotten worse, these different types of players are just more likely to interact nowadays since blizzard hands out free mythic raiding gear/high ilvl to anyone regardless of effort and players that really have no use for it. There is also titanforging.

These players then go on to think that all they needed to do harder content was a higher ilvl, when that was never the case. They are now interacting with higher skilled players more often and we run into this situation of experiencing “elitism” more often.

[Akston-bloodhoof (Akston)]

Bigotry is not limited to racial bigotry and I never said it was.

I used a parallel in the real world to illustrate to a particularly dense poster that making broad assumptions about ANYONE based on a single facet of that person whether it is race, religion, economic status, or . . . iLevel - is bigotry.

There is value in virtually every player if they’re not just camping at the graveyard in battlegrounds and if someone wants into a PUG and it’s abysmally below standards (not the elitist nonsense standards that have evolved - I mean the Blizzard guidelines), refusing to even consider them for entry based solely on their iLvl assuming that they don’t know the fights or are just looking for a carry is offensive.

But see, making a broad generalization on ilvl is not bigotry.

A person with a higher ilvl has a higher potential in dps. That isn’t “bigotry”.

When it comes to PUGs I will always optimize my chances of success by picking the PUG with the best potential. ILVL checks that.

And its offensive to hear someone try to compare “not inviting a person based on iLVL” with racism.