Kinda depends on the way you do it.
When we were progging heroic and say we failed on a boss sometimes the issue is actually DPS checks. If you’re 10 manning Shad’har the last phase (25% and lower) is too hard to prog without an average DPS of 38k per DPS player. Typically though players should output higher given the chance someone will die etc.
Ahhh, sounds like it’s more akin to the old challenge mode dungeons from MoP and WoD. Those were definitely fun and could be quite challenging with the scaling.
It is very much considered harassment in FFXIV. Mostly because parsers and meters are forbidden. You even whisper a hint in-game that you’re using a parser and your account can be banned. They are very strict about that.
In WoW, not so much. Meters aren’t against the TOS, and are encouraged. Used correctly, they are helpful. But they can be used to harass, bully, and exclude players. For example, the other thread that popped up today about low dps getting kicked from leveling dungeons, which is absurd.
Basically, my thoughts are that telling someone that their DPS is low isn’t harassment if they asked for the information, or their low dps is preventing success of the run. Other than that, keep it to yourself.
Shouldn’t we also inform someone of that though for the sake of aiding them? Why would we let someone sabotage them self when we have the information to make it so that changes? If I got a buddy who’s losing big time in arena, I’m gonna tell them they’re doing something wrong so they can do better. If I just let them continue to do the wrong things, they’ll get no where.
Its very specific FF14 thing, they are ok with people running dps meters if you aren’t publicly posting them and calling people out. You can run them to track performance, you just cant use them to crap on other players.
I think a very large part of the difference between the two stances in WoW and FFXIV is you’re talking the difference between Japanese culture and American culture. Which is vastly different. Respect, honor and fairness is of a much higher importance there than it is here.
Like most things, it depends upon how you do it and the intent behind it. If you are struggling to defeat an encounter due to low DPS, pointing out those that are under performing is perfectly fine. Provided it isn’t done in an insulting manner. Just another reason why I would probably go back to playing EQ before FF.
Which doesn’t stop anyone at all, they just use other modes outside of the game to do it.
How is normal and heroic progression and mythic not?
Possibly. There is being constructive and there is being a ragey poor loser. Most games it tends to be the later when meltdown guy/gal meltdowns.
Low DPS doesn’t always mean bad play. Raidbosses tend to train one or two RDPS with ST mechanics and if they healers aren’t paying attention to who is getting trained, those players are forced to sacrifice DPS to survive.
I’d argue that heroic really isn’t part of it because you don’t need to do heroic or mythic to do content after. Progression is about skilling up to take on content “after” what you are doing. Heroic and mythic are just bonus things to do, but you don’t actually need to do them. You can do all content in this game on Normal, heroic and mythic are an added challenge, that’s all.
I mean. None of raiding is progression then.
You don’t need to raid a single thing to do content “after”?
Right- but harassment is subjective, so there can’t really be one, single, correct answer.
I would also add that it depends on the content you’re doing. If you call someone out for low dps in say, a normal raid, after every boss fight in a demeaning manner ; that’s different than simply stating that people with low dps will be cut from a heroic raid on a progression fight.
Fights in heroic and mythic are ruined to fairly high standards and things like dps need to be taken into account and can easily make or break a fight.
Remember, this is just my perspective here.
Heroic mythic is fun, but not needed.
Did they ask for it? Telling someone without them wanting the information isn’t how you get someone to improve. They have to be ready and want to learn.
Just like wanting to get better at pvp. You couldn’t have dragged me into arenas with you to learn to PVP if I didn’t already want to improve. Shoving the information onto people when they don’t ask for it is only going to make them dig in their heels and resist. They have to want it.
Nice explanation
But being “needed” is irrelevant of it being “progression”.
In a gear progression game if you are doing something to progress your gear, you are progressing.
If your goal is to do mythic, than heroic is progression.
But if your goal is to just play the expansion and see everything in it, you dont really need heroic or mythic as they dont add anything to the story or content, just a bigger sponge
I’m not talking about forcing information on them. I’m talking about informing them they’re doing something wrong so they can come to the conclusion that they can improve if they want to.
I’m not gonna hit someone with a massive brick of information. You’re saying to just keep it to them self though. How do they even know they’re doing something wrong unless someone tells them?
“Hey look, I was watching and noticed you’re doing a couple of things wrong. If you want to improve, lemme know.” That’s not forcing information on them. That’s informing them they have the room to improve.
Sure. But that doesn’t mean that heroic and mythic aren’t progression. Guess that is all I am saying.
I don’t care about rated arena. A person getting better at PVP with their arena rating is still progressing regardless of my interest (or lack).